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black powder competition


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#1 bob

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 11:13 AM

I thought it might be cool if we had a competition to see the best black powder on this forum
so we could do two types of testing
1) spoolette test this would tell us which one was the fasts black powder
2) base ball or golf ball test this would tell us which one has the highest gas producing black powder
we would have to decide on mortar size amount of black powder and dummy shell wight if we did the base ball test
if we did the spoolette we would have to decide on tube size what densidy to have the black powder ie corned has a densidy of 1.7cc/gram I would think that 1.3cc/gram would be good for this test and the wight of the black powder to be rammed
what do you guys think?
bob

Edited by bob, 12 May 2012 - 11:14 AM.

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#2 Peret

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:32 AM

Spolette competition would be a waste of time. The winner would be the powder that was packed loosest. Golf ball test would be feasible. There are some - sort of - rules established through PGI, but I don't know where to find them.

#3 bob

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:28 AM

that is why we would have to say somthing like this
you must use a 1/4 inch id card bord tube
you must have 30 mm of packed black powder
you must use x amout by wight of black powder
that way we would have the black powder packed the same amout for every person
we could just come up with are one rules
I'd say some thin like this
you must use a golf ball that wighs 50 grams
you must use 5 grams total of black powder
you must use a mortar with a id of 1.75 inches
you can not use a lifting cup
you can not use a lifting disc
you can not use a wade
you can not use a patch
or somthing like that
bob
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#4 warthog

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 12:30 PM

I have the PGI rule book, though I haven't bothered to read through it, if there are rules for this sort of competition in it. Don't they have a Best BP competition at the conventions? I will look through the book and post what I find if I find anything of note. I would then props we simply use those rules rather than reinventing the wheel. Of course we can always modify their rules a but to better suit our needs.
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#5 AdmiralDonSnider

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 01:14 PM

In the beginning I too was exited trying to produce the fastest possible powder, but in the course of time I wanted consistent powder that did the job.

For some saving a few percent lift powder may justify spending extra time and money. For me it does not.

#6 Mumbles

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 05:38 PM

The rules are not in the PGI competition rule book as it is not a sanctioned competition as far as I know. I've actually never seen it run. If it does happen, it's probably by a group of guys and not actually ran by PGI. There aren't a lot of rules really. You use 2g of -8+12 graded powder. I really don't have the details of the mortar, if any standards actually exist. It's 1.75" ID, and fires a golfball which is around 1 5/8" OD. I thought some places sold plastic tubes in this dimension, but I couldn't find any. Skylighter sells cardboard of a suitable dimension. http://www.skylighte...ortar-tubes.htm

This is all fine, but Algenco will probably kick all of our butts.
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#7 bob

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:15 PM

first I'd like to say hi to don I'm on pyro guide forum
yes once you get better fast black powder becomes less needed but for some thins like braking shells with just bp you need hot stuff
I was thinking that the type and size of the black powder would be up to the guy that is entering ie if you use bp coated grass seed or rice hulls or polveron (polveron meaning milled wetted and put through a screen) cia or corned plus mesh size would also be up to you
well if algenco wines then algenco wines but you never know some one my just pop up with some really good stuff (not me my powder is good but not really good)
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#8 Peret

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 12:58 AM

We're planning to do a few rounds of Pyro Golf at the secret WPA event next week, for which we have a special tight-fit steel mortar. I'll let you know how it goes. When we tried a few shots at Winter Blast the best I could achieve was 5 seconds, which incidentally was better than Goex, so I look with some suspicion on claims of 14 seconds with 2 grams. My mate Isaac Newton reckons 14 seconds corresponds to nearly 800 feet.

#9 Mumbles

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 02:32 AM

There is some info in Ian von Malitz' book Blackpowder Manufacturing, Testing and Optimization. A chapter from this book is posted on Dan Creagan's website as well where there is also a bit of mention of it. Apparently the rules used to allow 4g. Are you sure these 10+ flight times were not done back then?

Since it's a competition for the hottest BP, you have to standardize grain size. Otherwise you introduce other variables besides just the BP quality. I can tell you that the hottest stuff is usually screen granulated as opposed to pressed.Im sure if you wanted to dilute your entry with non-combustable fillers no one would complain though as long as you stick to the 2g limit.
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#10 Potassiumchlorate

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 03:58 AM

In the beginning I too was exited trying to produce the fastest possible powder, but in the course of time I wanted consistent powder that did the job.

For some saving a few percent lift powder may justify spending extra time and money. For me it does not.


Although I think that my own BP is quite a bit above average, I feel that way too. I think I'll try Algenco's method with BP on rice hulls as lift. Pressing pucks (with a very improvised press), drying pucks, crushing pucks, sorting out the different powder...nay - not if coated rice hulls perform as good as Algenco claims.
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#11 AdmiralDonSnider

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:20 AM

I think I'll try Algenco's method with BP on rice hulls as lift.


Off topic but could you point me towards the thread where this is discussed? Sounds interesting as part of the gasses produced by grain seem to get wasted anyway.

#12 Potassiumchlorate

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:54 AM

Off topic but could you point me towards the thread where this is discussed? Sounds interesting as part of the gasses produced by grain seem to get wasted anyway.


Here and here.

;)
"This salt, formerly called hyperoxymuriate of potassa, is used for sundry preparations, and especially for experimental fire-works." Dr. James Cutbush

Conflo, ergo sum

#13 Algenco

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:39 AM

Ned Gorski should get credit for the idea of using coted rice hulls for lift and burst, he convinced me at a club shoot last year.

Coating rice hulls is a lot easier than granulating or pressing pucks, there is some dicussion that lower ratios 4/1-5/1 are even hotter than granuals or corned BP

I use 5/1 with Paulownia BP at the same rate as granulated for lift

Ned uses 7/1 White Pine BP for lift and adds slow flash for break
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#14 bob

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 08:49 PM

we could use a paper towel tube it's a snug fit for a golf ball but it would work and sines a lot of people could get them it could be a universal thin
I think we should have this closed in 2 weeks
in one week we could let people make up some rules
and in the second week we would let people show there resolts
and pronouns the winner in 14 days
I don't think we should have a serting grain size (what would we do if some one wanted to enter some black powder coated rice krispes it would be way to large) I was thinking that as long as it just has the four chems ie salt peter, charcoal, sulpher, and dextrin or red gum, that any black powder would be ok. the only regulation would be what chems are in it and amount of black powder used morter size and that you use a golf ball. I know what you saying but if your going to say what grain size then you have to say what type (polveron corned riced or cia) and then you going to say what type of charcoal and on and on and on until you have so meany limits that every body has the same flight time
so using two grams of lift is ok with every one?
bob

Edited by bob, 14 May 2012 - 08:50 PM.

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#15 Mumbles

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 10:25 PM

I hate to have to say this, but that last post of yours is borderline incomprehensible at times.

I don't think a paper towel tube would work. It's far too thin.
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#16 Peret

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 11:47 PM

Like I said, we'll test it and report next week. If you think a paper towel tube would work, you have no conception of the pressures and forces involved, but don't take my word for it, try it. The golf ball will stay on the ground and the shreds of cardboard will land in the next county. The easiest standard tube to use would be a 12 inch by 1.9 inch fiberglass mortar as supplied with consumer 1.75 inch shells, they're all pretty much identical, and if you happen to have a consumer firework store in your area that has a shooting field alongside you can probably pick up as many as you want for free. However, I do think a consumer mortar would need 4 grams.

#17 optimus

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 04:00 AM

Baseballs work nicely in 3" mortars, and are relatively easy to track through the air. I believe I'm still the unofficial UK champion with 12.7 seconds airtime :whistle:

#18 bob

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:07 AM

how much black powder did you use to get a 12.7 second air time?
ok so about the paper towel thing
1) sorry about not making it clear i would not just drop in my powder and ball into a normal paper towel tube I would first give it a lot of spiking and then past some layers on and if that was not a noff I would just take some thin rope and wind around it and then you could bury it in the ground and then there would be NO chances of it being recked
I know this sounds like a lot of work but even just spiking and burying it I think would be anof maybe I'm rong tho
@ peret I don't know what it's like in your country but in Canada there is NO way you can just pick up a mortar tube that is meant for the perpis of firing somthin more then ten feet
you have to use thins like steel pipe from one of are meany oil wells
or use pvc
if there is any thin that you think is not right with this post or any other post I have made please tell me like you did about the card bored tube thing
sorry about the miss understanding
from what mumbles said it sounds like there is more not right stuff in my last post can some one tell me what it is
bob
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#19 dagabu

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 11:15 AM

how much black powder did you use to get a 12.7 second air time?
ok so about the paper towel thing
1) sorry about not making it clear i would not just drop in my powder and ball into a normal paper towel tube I would first give it a lot of spiking and then past some layers on and if that was not a noff I would just take some thin rope and wind around it and then you could bury it in the ground and then there would be NO chances of it being recked


Bob,

I think you need to do a little more reading first before proposing using a paper towel tube in any manor EXCEPT to use it as the inner former for wrapping with fiberglass, phenolic resin and glass or as a mandrel for kraft paper rolled up to at least 1/4" thick. In reality, using an existing tube for reloadables (or whatever fits the best) would the best decision here to go forward with this "contest" since they are made in mass and specifying a specific label (Brothers, Black Cat etc) would keep variation down to a minimum.

All in all, I don't think that there is much use for the fastest powders as they are normally exotic, hard to reproduce and provide for to vigorous of a burn for most pyrotechnical use. For fun, it would be fine but I certainly have more pressing things to do this summer such as coating rice hulls and cutting stars. With the 4th coming up quickly, i suggest that we look at this in the fall when we are taking a pyro break.

-dag
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#20 bob

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Posted 15 May 2012 - 03:06 PM

o k it seems that ever body is mad at me right now
just thought it would be cool
sorry
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