Pirotecnia Posted March 21, 2012 Share Posted March 21, 2012 There's no substitutes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 Not generally. What did you have in mind? Most other things do not behave uniformly enough over a wide enough range to be useful. Using things like Benzolift only works for a relatively small range of shells. Benzolift is a thing that came about a number of years ago as a way to make lift and break without milling anything. It's a mixture of whistle mix and green meal BP. Some use meal though. It has too sharp of a pressure gradient with regard to burn rate. For small shells it may work fine, but step up an inch and you could be destroying mortars. The same is true with breaks. In my one experience trying it in a properly confined canister shell ended up with it pretty much becoming a salute. Some people do use H3 as a lift. I suspect this may take a little dialing in, as it could suffer from the same issues as perchlorate compositions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 The pressure ramp is such that it is very hard to "overload" a shell with too much BP v.s. other kinds of lift. I saw a VHS video of a Dixie Gun Works canon back in the 90s that was loaded to the end of the bore with BP and lit. 90% of the BP blew out the end and it did flip the canon on its side but it did not fail. ...it was made from brass too. I'm not saying to over do it just saying that BP has the tendency to kind of self regulate v.s. others. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I have used barium nitrate/Mg 55:45 for 2.5" dummies. It's very powerful, though, and rightout dangerous for bigger shells. Also: the barium nitrate was pretty coarse. Edited March 22, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan999ification Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 takeo's blue lift looks interesting, more by weight is required but it sure is different.then theres zinkit [not for shells] a good fireball lifter.as others have said its hard to over do it with bp whereas other comps may, can and are too strong to be used safely as lift.one idea i thought of for mines was to prime stars with a thick coat of bp and use them for the lift and the effect,like a bag mine, getting the prime to burn up before the stars leave needs working on but i never got round to it.some [including me] like mine lift/mine to break. dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 I know that they have used smokeless gunpowder in 1" mortars a long time ago, in the 1930's. A variety of Armstrong's with potassium perchlorate instead of chlorate has also been used. I would especially avoid the latter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirotecnia Posted March 22, 2012 Author Share Posted March 22, 2012 Nitrocelullose or Cordite cannot be used? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted March 22, 2012 Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Nitrocelullose or Cordite cannot be used? Cordite has been used in 1" "mortars", like I said, but I think it's impossible to use it in bigger ones: Spectacular Fireworks Much of that is no-no today. Interesting enough he used strontium chlorate for red bombs, despite its hygroscopicity. I love their "safety precautions" back then; no glasses, no gloves, and he is dressed like a bankman or something when mixing chemicals. http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/qf/c/ModernMechanix/6-1935/chemicals/xlg_chemicals_0.jpg Edited March 22, 2012 by Potassiumchlorate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dan999ification Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 nitrocellulose is used in indoor fireworks here for lifting "table mines" cat 1 fireworks minimal flammable fallout and smoke you may have trouble in bigger quantitys and no mortar left, it is more brissant than bp if used right .........or wrong.wooah the 15 year old author in the above article was making perc armstrong salutes, did they really have no alternatives, i wonder if hes still with us. dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrransom Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 There's no substitutes? I have been using Pyro Powder (154 g Kci03, 46 Willow C, 4 dex) for over 8 years now for lifting shells with great results. Just use 8 - 10% by weight of shell and you will never have any problem getting your shells to altitude. Screen your chemicals then wet with 25% alch/ water and knead until you can form into a ball. (don't get too wet) Rub your newly formed pyro ball over a screen to get your granular mix and allow to dry. This is a very fast burning lift powder that has never failed me yet. Be aware of the "cholrate" in this mix and keep it away from anything containing sulfur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I have been using Pyro Powder (154 g Kci03, 46 Willow C, 4 dex) for over 8 years now for lifting shells with great results. Just use 8 - 10% by weight of shell and you will never have any problem getting your shells to altitude. Screen your chemicals then wet with 25% alch/ water and knead until you can form into a ball. (don't get too wet) Rub your newly formed pyro ball over a screen to get your granular mix and allow to dry. This is a very fast burning lift powder that has never failed me yet. Be aware of the "cholrate" in this mix and keep it away from anything containing sulfur. Why the hell would anyone use chlorate for lift? The pressure wave is way to great for anything above a 3" shell... -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 I have been using Pyro Powder (154 g Kci03, 46 Willow C, 4 dex) for over 8 years now for lifting shells with great results. Just use 8 - 10% by weight of shell and you will never have any problem getting your shells to altitude. Screen your chemicals then wet with 25% alch/ water and knead until you can form into a ball. (don't get too wet) Rub your newly formed pyro ball over a screen to get your granular mix and allow to dry. This is a very fast burning lift powder that has never failed me yet. Be aware of the "cholrate" in this mix and keep it away from anything containing sulfur. What size shells are you lifting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pirotecnia Posted June 20, 2012 Author Share Posted June 20, 2012 I have been using Pyro Powder (154 g Kci03, 46 Willow C, 4 dex) for over 8 years now for lifting shells with great results. Just use 8 - 10% by weight of shell and you will never have any problem getting your shells to altitude. Screen your chemicals then wet with 25% alch/ water and knead until you can form into a ball. (don't get too wet) Rub your newly formed pyro ball over a screen to get your granular mix and allow to dry. This is a very fast burning lift powder that has never failed me yet. Be aware of the "cholrate" in this mix and keep it away from anything containing sulfur. Thanks!! But today, my homemade corned Black Powder is perfect!I use only 10% of the weight of the shell and i got high altitudes!But i'm thanking for your opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted June 20, 2012 Share Posted June 20, 2012 Everyone I've seen uses blackpowder for lift. Cordite is better suited for weapons to accelerate projectiles to very high speeds, and if you notice on a gun barrel is steel is much thicker, over 1". I haven't seen any mortar with that thick of a wall, at least compared to a gun barrel. Just stick to black powder, if you can't get black powder or its ingredients, then there's probably a lot of other pyro related stuff you can't get either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 Black powder has a fairly consistent pressure gradient, from what I have read, which is why rocketry guys uses them for ejection charges for parachutes. Pyrodex and smokeless doesn't even come close for having a good burn rate at lower pressures, and at high pressure smokeless is really bristant (it's good at shattering things) which isn't what is desired here. Someone has tried to develop a rocket ejection system using smokeless powder or pyrodex but I don't think they have gotten anywhere with this. Part of the reason is that in America smokeless and pyrodex is really easy to get whereas not many sell bp, and if they did its expensive as hell (but a can of 4fg lasts nearly forever for rocket guys). The same property of bp also allows firework guys to shoot relatively weak mortars out of paper or plastic tubes without destroying the mortar or the shell in the process. If cordite or smokeless powder is used, the mortar would need to be made from at least 2" thick high quality steel (think same material as most gun barrels), and the shell would need to be constructed from metal like military shells to survive the firing. The lack of brisance of bp also allows granite or marble quarries to use them to blast those rocks without harming the rock itself. In short, there aren't any safe replacement for bp, and if you can't get bp or its ingredients then there's a lot of other pyro stuff you can't get either. In Taiwan you can't get bp unless you rip apart consumer fireworks, but the ingredients are fairly easy to get. In the US you technically aren't allowed to buy and use commercial bp unless it is for bp firearms... because bp is classified as an explosive by the ATF but bp firearms are exempt due to the second amendment. Correct me if this has changed... Use of other stuff like benzolift isn't really recommended unless it's for a small shell, and I personally see no reason for them. Spiking burst charge with flash or whistle to increase the brissance (to get better burst) is one thing, but that's not what you want with lift charge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 In the US you technically aren't allowed to buy and use commercial bp unless it is for bp firearms... because bp is classified as an explosive by the ATF but bp firearms are exempt due to the second amendment. Correct me if this has changed... The second amendment? I sure hope not, if they try to take the second amendment away, there will be other needs for that BP we make instead of fireworks. Yes, you must have a BP arm or canon (both protected) to have or purchase BP in the US but as you say, it is much more a technicality in day to day operations. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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