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AP blue with copper benzoate and hexamine?


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#21 Sulphurstan

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Posted 24 January 2019 - 04:38 PM

[. When I see the low amount of copper and the big excess of HCl in these formulations I wonder if the flame color could be even further improved by replacing some of the copper benzoate with metallic copper to increase the copper concentration in the flame? ] {Crazy Sweden}

Once Mumbles gave me a stoichiometry mid of December, I've been working a little on this mix, and the idea of "using" this big amount of HCl to create more CuCl also came to my mind. I first tried to add a few additional % of CuCo3, but results are not that nice (spectrums are not getting really more blue). Next set of tests will be add-in CuO instead of the CuCO3, and study the spectrum changes..

But I don't even try to insert the additional few % in the chemical equation, way too complicated for me 😥 -> Triangle diagrams are quite nice when stoichiometry and theory get too tough.

@Mumbles: Cu Oxalate is also on my experience scheme later on, but I read somewhere, that AP and Oxalate might (just might..) be an unstable mix, do i confuse, or could it be the case?)

Love this thread guys, chemistry upper level 👍

Edited by Sulphurstan, 24 January 2019 - 04:55 PM.


#22 Sulphurstan

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 02:18 PM

@ Mumbles.

Back to my previous post regarding CuC2O4. Not with AP but with hexamine :
just read in the wiley guide to chemical incompatibilities, thatCu oxalate doesn't like amines.... so hexamine and Cu oxalate together should be investigated with special care?
It doesn't says what the reaction could be , just saying "incompatible "...

#23 Mumbles

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Posted 29 January 2019 - 10:11 PM

Copper oxalate is very insoluble. I suspect it might just form complexes and dissolve it. Soluble copper species in pyro comps tend to be bad news as they're often hygroscopic and corrosive to several materials. I didn't see the anime incompatible listed. Just strong oxidizers, halogens and zinc acetate.

Like any new or experimental comp, one should exercise caution.

I did also find some references to copper oxalate forming copper metal under pyrolysis under inert atmosphere. It sounds like it's easy to form oxide if trace air is present though. Hopefully that means in the flame envelope discussed here, the chloride would form too.
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#24 Sulphurstan

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 01:41 PM

Wiley guide, third edition:[ C2CuO4 Aqueous solution may act as an acid and as a reducing agent. Incompatible with bases, AMINES, amides, and inorganic hydroxides; strong oxidizers, including chlorine, fluorine, peroxides and
hydroperoxides; zinc acetate. Some reactions may release carbon dioxide.]
But how can they make aqueous solution???? Solubilty ==0!

This oxalate forming copper metal under certain circumstances makes me think of blue strobe formulas, using copper metal (but which is not a friend of AP), maybe a new path to investigate

#25 WSM

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 08:27 AM

Instead of black copper oxide (CuO), what about adding red copper oxide (Cu2O)? The cuprous compound has more available copper.

Just a thought...

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#26 Sulphurstan

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Posted 28 February 2019 - 01:42 PM

Yep, maybe that Cu2O would enhance the result, but my last spectrograms are saying that I face CuOH production, whatever the amount of additional Copper compounds I put in the mix !!

I'm still thinking of switching cubenzoate to CuOxal. (Reducing the amount of hydrogen in the initial reagents, compared to benzoate).
At the moment,i have no time for pyro, and the few moments I spent recently on this composition by analyzing the spectrum are quite disappointing: the CuCl peaks are indeed seen, but they are also huge CuOH peaks, that "lower" the blue and push the color toward bluish-green, even whitish...
I hope to soon find some time to look into the chemistry of the reactions, to see how to avoid the CuOH in the process....."less hydrogen in the reagents, less CuOH in the products"????

Edited by Sulphurstan, 28 February 2019 - 01:45 PM.





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