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AP blue with copper benzoate and hexamine?


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#1 Potassiumchlorate

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 06:38 AM

I'm a devoted chlorate guy, but since I've been experimenting with New Blue, I'm considering taking up blue AP stars again.

Anyone good at chemistry who knows on an average what a good composition with ammonium perchlorate, copper benzoate and hexamine would look like? Something like 70% AP, 20% copper benzoate and 10% hexamine?

And for safety and success:

1. Would +1% by weight of 20% NC lacquer be enough to make pumped stars?

2. Should the hexamine be dried first, if binding with NC lacquer? I suppose it should. How to do it without destroying it?

3. Is a KP prime+tissue paper sufficient to protect the stars from an H3 burst or would a KP burst be better?

Edited by Potassiumchlorate, 06 February 2012 - 06:38 AM.

"This salt, formerly called hyperoxymuriate of potassa, is used for sundry preparations, and especially for experimental fire-works." Dr. James Cutbush

Conflo, ergo sum

#2 allrocketspsl

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 10:47 AM

I'm a devoted chlorate guy, but since I've been experimenting with New Blue, I'm considering taking up blue AP stars again.

Anyone good at chemistry who knows on an average what a good composition with ammonium perchlorate, copper benzoate and hexamine would look like? Something like 70% AP, 20% copper benzoate and 10% hexamine?

And for safety and success:

1. Would +1% by weight of 20% NC lacquer be enough to make pumped stars?

2. Should the hexamine be dried first, if binding with NC lacquer? I suppose it should. How to do it without destroying it?

3. Is a KP prime+tissue paper sufficient to protect the stars from an H3 burst or would a KP burst be better?


I have a great blue go getter formula works really good lots of thrust using AP

#3 Mumbles

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 11:56 AM

Typically one must made the decision between using ammonium perchlorate and chlorates. The incompatibility is more than a lot of people are willing to deal with if separate isolated workspaces are not an option.

1. Are you talking 1% of 20% NC lacquer added? If so, that seems like extremely little. If you're talking about +1% residual NC remaining in the composition, then you might be okay. That'd be 5% by weight of the liquid itself. That seems more reasonable if you can press hard enough.

3. I'd avoid all chlorates all together in a shell with AP. I'm a little concerned that you don't fully respect AP and chlorates if you're even considering this as an option. I'm willing to use AP stars and BP primes and bursts in a shell. That incompatibility will not cause spontaneous ignition or increased shock sensitivity however.

The ratio looks good to me. It's about what I would have suggested. Dave Blesser gives a formula for a purple that is approximately 70/20/10 after making the appropriate substitutions.
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#4 Potassiumchlorate

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 12:14 PM

So it's not recommendable to use a chlorate burst for AP stars, even if they are primed with a KP prime?

I have made New Blue with NC-lacquer as a binder before and added on freehand. In the end the stars were extremely hard to pump.

My brain won't work for maths today, it seems. Should I take +20% by weight of 20% concentration NC-lacquer then? :unsure:

Is it hard to roll by hand with NC-lacquer? If I had a rolling machine, I'd probably roll all my stars.
"This salt, formerly called hyperoxymuriate of potassa, is used for sundry preparations, and especially for experimental fire-works." Dr. James Cutbush

Conflo, ergo sum

#5 50AE

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:32 PM

Ammonium perchlorate near any chlorate is much more hazardous, even than chlorate/sulfur.

While with other ammonium salts the resultant NH4ClO3 may be very tiny, with ammonium perchlorate it is guaranteed in bulk. This is because one of the products, KClO4 is much less soluble, than most of the chlorates.
I would assemble a shell with chlorate and sulfur together, but never with the above. Think about it.

#6 Potassiumchlorate

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 01:54 PM

OK. I will make a KP burst instead, if I decide to make this composition. :)

Edited by Potassiumchlorate, 06 February 2012 - 01:54 PM.

"This salt, formerly called hyperoxymuriate of potassa, is used for sundry preparations, and especially for experimental fire-works." Dr. James Cutbush

Conflo, ergo sum

#7 Mumbles

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Posted 06 February 2012 - 06:12 PM

BP is an option too. It's not impossible to sufficiently baracade AP from Potassium nitrate. A barrier type prime bound with NC or alcohol made from KP with something over the top bound with a non-solvent for the barrier layer is how I've always done it. I used a healthy layer of something like the standard pinball prime (ie without metals) bound with NC lacquer, and allowed it to dry. I would then add a layer of meal bound with water.
Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.

#8 Potassiumchlorate

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 10:34 AM

OK. I have tested it now. It burns very clear. There is almost no smoke from it. Have never seen a pyrotechnic composition being so smokeless. :)
"This salt, formerly called hyperoxymuriate of potassa, is used for sundry preparations, and especially for experimental fire-works." Dr. James Cutbush

Conflo, ergo sum

#9 californiapyro

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Posted 26 February 2012 - 11:02 AM

consider this; these are ammonium perchlorate stars, covered in veline superprime and a layer of KP, burst with BP on hulls after being stored for 2 months.




and here is a shell of similar construction with tiger's tail comets alongside the AP blue, stored for 3 months. I think it is safe to use BP, as long as proper priming procedures are implemented



www.fireworktools.com

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#10 Sulphurstan

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 02:05 PM

I found this Old post, which is just partially answering the question I have in mind these days.
Planning to fine tune a blue star composition based on this one, I'd like to know if someone could give the stoichiometry of ap and cubenzoate (without hexamine)? I'm trying, but after 2 hours of writing, erasing formulas, it's clear I don't have enough chemistry knowledge to have it done.... Any help welcomed!

#11 Carbon796

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:22 PM

Bleser's New Blue is
82% AP
18% Copper benz
3% N/C as a binder,iirc

Edited by Carbon796, 11 December 2018 - 06:23 PM.


#12 NeighborJ

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:25 PM

Another: 79.2-AP, 17.4-cu benzo, 3.4-dex.

This would have been much better tested in the air.
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#13 Mumbles

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Posted 11 December 2018 - 06:57 PM

This is a hard one to balance. The trick or secret is that it makes HCl too. At least that's one way to balance it. This also doesn't necessarily accurately represent the true molecular nature of copper benzoate, which has a few different possible hydrates and potential forms and adducts. For what it's worth, I know from having done this before that the Blesser formula is basically the stoichiometric formula.

12 NH4ClO4 + Cu(CO2C6H5)2 → 6 N2 + CuCl2 + 24 H2O + 14 CO2 + 10 HCl

This is 82.2% AP and 17.8% Copper Benzoate.
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Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.

#14 Sulphurstan

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 02:06 PM

Thank you VERY much all 3 of you for your answers.

I was "approaching" this equilibrium, but first problem was the CuCl2: though it would decompose with heat in something else?, and, most disturbing: i read in this thread that the composition was super-smokeless (did not check if that is true or if this member lives in a very dry area). In my mind, no smoke was meaning no HCl (fog with air humidity and the lot of H2O produced), but decomposition of AP DOES GIVE HCl... at the end these contradictions were too much for me 😅
Long story short: I'll start with these proportions, as soon as i received my diffraction grating for my cheapo spectrometer I'll build to "Analyse" the spectrum.

Edited by Sulphurstan, 12 December 2018 - 02:31 PM.


#15 Piromur

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Posted 08 January 2019 - 12:08 PM

The use of ammonium perchlorate is very dangerous when handling. If you want by private I send you a blue color that works very well for me

#16 Carbon796

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 12:24 PM

The use of ammonium perchlorate is very dangerous when handling. If you want by private I send you a blue color that works very well for me



Why ?

What are you basing this statement on ?

#17 dagabu

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Posted 09 January 2019 - 12:34 PM

I was wondering about that too, APCP motors are made all the time with no more danger than any other comp as long as you don't mix Chlorate with it or use any tools that have been used with Chlorate. 

 

In my shop, I used AP so I never used Chlorate. In my new shop, I will have a 'smoke station' outside where I will use Chlorate but it will never come inside. 


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#18 Sulphurstan

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 03:44 PM

As long - in my little small experience- you don't mix ap with clo3, with soluble copper salts, with mg (wet), with cu, with mgal (wet) and a few more, ap is pretty safe. I personally like this chemical, but yes, I admit to treat it with more extra care than other chems. There is a book out there mentioning all ap incompatibilities (can't remember which one for the moment, and my workshop is too cold now for me to go there to grab it 😗😗).

Edited by Sulphurstan, 11 January 2019 - 03:47 PM.


#19 Crazy Swede

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 06:42 AM

This is a hard one to balance. The trick or secret is that it makes HCl too. At least that's one way to balance it. This also doesn't necessarily accurately represent the true molecular nature of copper benzoate, which has a few different possible hydrates and potential forms and adducts. For what it's worth, I know from having done this before that the Blesser formula is basically the stoichiometric formula.

12 NH4ClO4 + Cu(CO2C6H5)2 → 6 N2 + CuCl2 + 24 H2O + 14 CO2 + 10 HCl

This is 82.2% AP and 17.8% Copper Benzoate.

A couple of questions:

 

Is it really correct to calculate with the formation of CuCl2 when we "know" the species emitting blue color is the excited CuCl molecule?

Do you think it would be successful in this case to balance the formulation to the production of CO instead of CO2?

 

I saw this was discussed on Science Madness by the user Turbosnigel in 2012 and the following reactions were also mentioned:

 

CuBz, water free, Burning to CO2
62 NH4ClO4 + 10 C14H10CuO4 = 148 H2O + 52 HCl + 140 CO + 31 N2 + 10 CuCl
AP 7284,38g + CuBz 3057,73g = 10342,11g
Composition uses 29,57% CuBz, and contains 6,14 mass% Cu.

CuBz, water free, Burning to CO 
118 NH4ClO4 + 10 C14H10CuO4 = 232 H2O + 108 HCl + 140 CO2 + 59 N2 + 10 CuCl
AP 13863,82g + CuBz 3057,73g = 16921,55g
Composition uses 18,07% CuBz and containing 3,75 mass % Cu.

 

When I see the low amount of copper and the big excess of HCl in these formulations I wonder if the flame color could be even further improved by replacing some of the copper benzoate with metallic copper to increase the copper concentration in the flame?

 

Unfortunately copper powder is not stable together with ammonium perchlorate but I guess a little dichromate would fix that.



#20 Mumbles

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 08:27 PM

I recall seeing the CO calculation on science madness, but the second I didn't remember. I agree that it'd probably be better to balance to CuCl and that equation is probably more accurate. As you can see, it's a more complicated calculation. I gave it a shot a few times, but kept ending up with chlorine gas. CuCl2 disproportionates at around 1000C into CuCl and chlorine. I kept going back and forth as to if it would be reasonable to include or not. I see Turbosnigel figured out how to turn it in HCl, which is a more reasonable product.

The equation I posted is almost identical stoichiometrically to the second equation you presented. Whether accidentally or not, they both end up close to the functional mixture from Blesser.

I don't know if I ever saw that first CO balanced equation tried in practice. I'd certainly like to see it though. Generally reducing flames give somewhat better colors for chlorine emitters. Maybe something in between would be ideal.

The copper metal is an interesting idea. I don't know how it decomposes, but copper oxalate might be something to try. Some transition metal oxalates decompose to metal powder and CO2. I've always had it in the back of my mind as a masked source of elemental metals.
Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.




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