Potassiumchlorate Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The ratio is usually 77:23 without a binder and with very "hot" charcoal. Could I take the 3% from the charcoal? I have seen H3 compostions with >=80% potassium chlorate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Why would you do that. You want to use less charcoal? I think it's better for the comp to starve for oxygen a little, not the other way. If we accept charcoal with a formula C7H4O 2,66KClO3 + C7H4O -> 2,66KCl + 7CO + 2H2O 326,6 104 = 75 : 23,88 %= 75,85 : 24,15 More oxidizer will make the charcoal burn to CO2, but the comp will be slower I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) I want my burst to be as energetic as possible. I have actually used H3 on cotton seeds in a couple of 6" shells. The bursts were very powerful but not optimal, I think. Most stars ignited, though. What about: Potassium chlorate 74Willow charcoal 23SGRS 3 ? By the way, 50AE, you seem to be better on stochiometry and chemical theory than I am. What if I made KP burst instead? Shimizu says that the optimal KP burst with sulfur and charcoal is: Potassium perchlorate 70Charcoal 18Sulfur 12 If I don't want to take the binder from the KP, should I take it from the charcoal or the sulfur then? Sulfur is cheaper, so I'd rather take it from the charcoal. Edited November 2, 2011 by Potassiumchlorate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Think about fiddling with the particle size of the charcoal, and probably the chlorate, too (don´t ball mill together of course). Shimizu stresses that the charcoal in H3 should be as fine as possible. I´m using 150 mesh paulownia with good results, but assume that ballmilled charcoal would quite speed up the burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Why are you taking any parts from anything? I take it from some of these questions you don't actually have a copy of FAST, and are just quoting dubious internet sources. Everything in the book clearly states that all of his bursts are bound with +2% SGRS. H3 is thus:Potassium Chlorate - 75Charcoal - 25SGRS +2% (by the way, I have no idea where you came up with 77:23 being standard) Using this method keeps the ratios of the burst consistent. Your batch will be 102g instead of 100g of course. Not everything does or has to add to an even 100. If that bothers you, recalculate the actual percentages out of 100, don't start replacing parts here and there just to make yourself feel better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 "Dubious internet sources" - no. The ratio 77:23 is from a chemical dealer who has been in the business for 18 years and is specialized in pyrotechnics. I do have Shimizu's book, though I don't consider everything carved in stone, so to speak. With 2% I have problems with the binder working properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Admiral said it, but I assumed you ball mill everything to the finer state. H3 with the finest charcoal and KClO3 is scary. I had a video of ignitions of it...Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brAkD1HWK-Y Edited November 2, 2011 by 50AE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (by the way, I have no idea where you came up with 77:23 being standard) (...) don't start replacing parts here and there just to make yourself feel better. Harsh reply given the fact that this formula is indeed the more traditional one. (See Shimizu in Lancaster, FPP p.343f). "Potassium Chlorate Bursting Charge H3Weight (%)Potassium Chlorate 77Hemp Coal 23Soluble Glutinous Rice Starch 2 (Additional percent) This is the famous old formula for the bursting charge H3, which isstill widely used in Japan. The ratio of hemp coal to potassium chlorateis about 3:10, from which the name H3 comes." H3 with the finest charcoal and KClO3 is scary. I had a video of ignitions of it... Great, interesting footage, 50AE. Looks like there is plenty room for improvement . Sure you are using finely divided, real SGRS, potassiumchlorate? Should do the job quite well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Sure you are using finely divided, real SGRS, What is real SGRS Don? I have been looking for the answer for some time now. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) What is real SGRS Don? I have been looking for the answer for some time now. -dag Yes, and I was tempted to post in the thread on SGRS, being unsure whether everything available from the local Asia mart is actually soluble glutinous rice starch. I may be sticking to a myth here, but I bought a product called rice meal being sold to me as rice starch (I will have a look on the actual description, being told at the same time that real rice starch would be too expensive (about 17 times more) than what I had there. So rice starch actually is rice starch, assumably also SGRS, given they don´t sell you something else. That was what I wanted to point out - as far as I know there is no 1 buck/lb SGRS at your local asian. Edit: my older post from over there:Today I visited a local asia shop. The guy there told me that something like SGRS does not exist (I don´t know if he was referring to the world or his shop), but told me that it is "glutinous rice flour" (basically milled glutinous rice) what I´m looking for. So I bought an lb for close to nothing. Still can´t believe that I´ve got the right stuff. Edited November 2, 2011 by AdmiralDonSnider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 2, 2011 Author Share Posted November 2, 2011 (edited) Of course I don't pull compositions right out of my ass. It's a justified question whether you could change the ratio a bit, given the differences between different types of charcoal. H3 in a 6" shell gives a very powerful burst, the most powerful you can get withouth crushing the stars. At the same time it's simple and relatively cheap, even with bought charcoal. It goes very well with chlorate stars. AdmiralDonSnider, I think it's a very good SGRS. It's rather me not fully grasping the technique of coating the cotton seeds to 100%. Edited November 2, 2011 by Potassiumchlorate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Yes, and I was tempted to post in the thread on SGRS, being unsure whether everything available from the local Asia mart is actually soluble glutinous rice starch. I may be sticking to a myth here, but I bought a product called rice meal being sold to me as rice starch (I will have a look on the actual description, being told at the same time that real rice starch would be too expensive (about 17 times more) than what I had there. So rice starch actually is rice starch, assumably also SGRS, given they don´t sell you something else. That was what I wanted to point out - as far as I know there is no 1 buck/lb SGRS at your local asian. Edit: my older post from over there: Darn, I was hoping that you knew the process. -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I will admit, that first comment came out a bit harsh. I wouldn't go quite as far as to say that the ratio is usually 77:23 however, at least without quoting a source. If someone mention's something from Shimizu, Ron Lancaster's book is not the first source that comes to mind. The second I will stand by. There is no need to "sub in" parts of a binder for parts of the overall formula. Just add it as an additional percentage, as was designed, and there are no worries about how the formula will be effected. If your charcoal gives too strong of a burst for your preferences, then you change either the amount of burst in the shell, or the formula of the burst. Trying to solve problems before they present themselves will only lead to more problems. I will stress that formulas do not NEED to add to 100 parts to be functional. Trying to replace components with others just to make them add to 100 is really nothing more than making yourself feel better, and introducing other variables. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 3, 2011 Author Share Posted November 3, 2011 (edited) Trying to solve problems before they present themselves will only lead to more problems. I will stress that formulas do not NEED to add to 100 parts to be functional. Trying to replace components with others just to make them add to 100 is really nothing more than making yourself feel better, and introducing other variables. There you are right. I have that tendency sometimes, not only in pyro. I tend to think "What could go wrong?" or "How can this be improved?" before I have seen that it works good at it is. Though I have made H3 before, like I said, and used it in 6", but with grapevine, and it didn't seem as powerful as in 50AE's video. And formulas don't need to be in % of course. Edited November 3, 2011 by Potassiumchlorate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Are your chemicals ball milled in a very fine state? I use "silk to the touch" KClO3 and pine charcoal and get this speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potassiumchlorate Posted November 17, 2011 Author Share Posted November 17, 2011 Yes, they are. I still haven't tried H3 with willow, though. Last year I used grapevine/vineyard charcoal. Not bad, but I have seen better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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