Other BP ratios with grapevine/vineyard charcoal?

[Potassiumchlorate]

70:18:12 should be better according to some, among them some suppliers of grapevine/vineyard, though I doubt that they make this statement just to profit from the 3% extra charcoal, but: is the statement correct? 75:15:10 works very good with grapevine/vineyard charcoal but would 70:18:12 work better? Higher oxygen content in the charcoal would of course make it probable that this might be the case.

 

I know that 70:18:12 is also the ratio for Shimizu's KP, but that's another story.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Yes I'm the one who said this. I did some reading about black powder and found out the ratio should be a bit different than the standard ratio. Grape has an higher ash content, that's why it needs more of it.

 

Why don't you just try and see what happens?

 

If 75:10:15 works fine for you, keep it that way

[Mumbles]

You may have seen it, but there was recently a post on the UKPS forum related to this. I've heard that vine charcoal particularly, but some others as well, benefit from a ratio outside of the conventional 75:15:10. I'm very curious as to what is the cause of this. It would seem to me "extra" oxygen content in the charcoal could be "fixed" by longer cooking. However people who have made their own charcoal from grape vines, as well as people using the commercial stuff from NitroParis both seem to agree that a different ratio helps. There could be something special about grape vines, or the other chemicals it contains, and the way they carbonize. It could be higher ash content. There are a lot of things. Extra things in the charcoal could reduce the apparent oxygen requirement for clean burning. Grape vines could logically contain more sugar that other wood sources, which may increase volatiles or carbonize differently at least.

 

This is the post I was referring to: http://www.pyrosocie...dpost__p__74653

 

 

[edit] I see Freakydutchman has weighed in on this and seems to offer a valid reason. I bet other alleged "bad" charcoals could benefit from something like this too.

[Potassiumchlorate]

Hm, I think you are right. I know that the French used poplar charcoal for both military and civilian use, which had the ratio 75:12.5:12.5 and that they had between 70% and 80% potassium nitrate in different countries during the 19th Century. That was probably due to the different kinds of charcoal avaliable. Sweden had 76% potassium nitrate, while Russia had just 70%, for instance.

 

Since the quality of the charcoal is so crucial, it seems very reasonable to change the composition a bit depending on which charcoal is used. Will try it the next time.

[madmandotcom]

http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/6004-does-anyone-here-use-the-optimal-mix-for-bp/

have you seen this thread?

[wooddude]

Hi i've been browsing these forums for a while now, The amount of info here is incredible and I thank you all. Ok so here's my question i have been cooking my own charcoal for my black powder for about a year and a half ,white pine, willow and grape vines.I live in the hudson valley and this weekends noreaster took down a bunch of trees including some pussy willows. Has anyone ever made pussy willow charcoal, and what would it be used for BP,stars,rockets? Any info would be appreaciated thanks.

[oldmanbeefjerky]

hi, ive just had the most wonderful day, including finding $10, getting two simultaneous (within 7 minutes of each other) sales on my ebay store, i have found several areas i deliver junk mail to, have public areas with grape vines growing there. i know they are grape as some have grapes on them just under 1cm in diamter, and also i know what a grapevine looks like as i used to own one.

 

Now, since using grape for charcoal requires different treatment than other woods, i have a few questions

1. do i need to remove the bark? it would make sense but i would rather not unless it had some kind of positive impact of the charcoal. the bark seems to be the strongest part of the wood, with the inside snapping easily even when dead, whereas the bark is almost unbreakable even when dried up.

from what i think, the bark is what contributes to the additional ash content, but thats just my theory.

2. the type of grapevine i have access to has very red leaf stems, is this type good for charcoal? what species is it? or probably is if anyone knows?

3. can i use the leaf stems (excluding the leaves) for charcoal? or am i limited to using the already woody, wood? i have a very limited supply here as the whole vine is rather small, and there are very few bulky sections i can remove without removing over 3rd of the vine

4. does it at all matter if the wood is already dried up , super light and brittle? or is living wood better? as i said, my main sources of wood from the vine are segments which are dead and dry, but very thick.

[pyrojig]

hi, ive just had the most wonderful day, including finding $10, getting two simultaneous (within 7 minutes of each other) sales on my ebay store, i have found several areas i deliver junk mail to, have public areas with grape vines growing there. i know they are grape as some have grapes on them just under 1cm in diamter, and also i know what a grapevine looks like as i used to own one.

 

Now, since using grape for charcoal requires different treatment than other woods, i have a few questions

1. do i need to remove the bark? it would make sense but i would rather not unless it had some kind of positive impact of the charcoal. the bark seems to be the strongest part of the wood, with the inside snapping easily even when dead, whereas the bark is almost unbreakable even when dried up.

from what i think, the bark is what contributes to the additional ash content, but thats just my theory.

2. the type of grapevine i have access to has very red leaf stems, is this type good for charcoal? what species is it? or probably is if anyone knows?

3. can i use the leaf stems (excluding the leaves) for charcoal? or am i limited to using the already woody, wood? i have a very limited supply here as the whole vine is rather small, and there are very few bulky sections i can remove without removing over 3rd of the vine

4. does it at all matter if the wood is already dried up , super light and brittle? or is living wood better? as i said, my main sources of wood from the vine are segments which are dead and dry, but very thick.

 

 

 

 

I have been at the art of making my own charcoal for many years as well. I found out the hard way that you CAN make charcoal with the bark on BUT , your bp WILL suffer from a heavy ash/ oily content. Also the wood is insulated from the intimate contact of the others and will cook slower. I would advise against the leaves and other scrap as well for the same reasons.

So in short strip the bark off the woods that your cooking . Larger stocks should be cut to strips to reduce the cooking time.

As far as dry or wet , it just becomes a cooking time issue. It takes longer because the water has to be boiled out first., then the charcoal can be cooked from the wood.

 

I personally have had experience with Poplar charcoal , and I have to say it is about par if not faster than willow. Never used grapevine, but I do have farmer friends in the area that can offer truck loads of trimmings and or old stocks. I just have never had a need for it. I have some lightning fast bp with willow and poplar. As a plus both grow with in a 1/4 mi from my house and dead branches are pruned regularly .

[Mortartube]

I have cooked the main stems of grapevine (debarked) and it makes extremely hard charcoal. So much so, that it broke the blades off of my coffee mill. I have never encountered such a hard charcoal. I believe that the Maltese use the more tender fronds and small branches.

[dagabu]

I have cooked the main stems of grapevine (debarked) and it makes extremely hard charcoal. So much so, that it broke the blades off of my coffee mill. I have never encountered such a hard charcoal. I believe that the Maltese use the more tender fronds and small branches.

 

They use the trimmings from the vines like all vineyards do (trim that is), it's all brownwood after one years growth. My vines can grow 10' in one summer and I get plenty of vine to play with after trimming them back though I prefer cedar for charcoal.

 

-dag

[pyrojig]

They use the trimmings from the vines like all vineyards do (trim that is), it's all brownwood after one years growth. My vines can grow 10' in one summer and I get plenty of vine to play with after trimming them back though I prefer cedar for charcoal.

 

-dag

 

Dag....

 

Fill me in on your cedar charcoal...

 

I have always wanted to make charcoal with cedar, ( being soft &easy powdered) for bp... SO, what is the finish bp like?

[dagabu]

Dag....

 

Fill me in on your cedar charcoal...

 

I have always wanted to make charcoal with cedar, ( being soft &easy powdered) for bp... SO, what is the finish bp like?

 

Its faster then Pine by far but as you suggest, the milled BP is pretty fluffy. I blew up all my nozzled rockets with this stuff and have yet to make nozzleless rocket s with it. Sounds like a weekend project to me.

 

-dag

[pyrojig]

NICE..

What type of cedar are we speaking of. I live in the northern region. Im not sure if it makes much diff. between them, but another tree comes to mind as well: redwood. I believe that would have a similar charcoal /.

Hot Stuff ...it sounds like a winner. What about spark duration and color for star comps? Willow and pine see to take the cake there. BUT, from what it sounds like cedar may be a nice sub.

 

BTW take that hot bp and press some nozzless core burners.. I did this with the willow and hot damn!!! They where spicy little guys. Short lived but energetic.... like whistle w/o the noise.

 

 

Its faster then Pine by far but as you suggest, the milled BP is pretty fluffy. I blew up all my nozzled rockets with this stuff and have yet to make nozzleless rocket s with it. Sounds like a weekend project to me.

 

-dag