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#1 Rooster

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 05:56 AM

al93535:

There is a blue star thread, but none for green, red, or other colors.
I have been working on the perfect ratio's for blue, red and green stars for the past few months. I have finaly settled on these comps, they are all pretty easy to light, burn very colorful, and leave almost no residue.
Blue:
Potassium perchlorate 62%
Hexamine 10%
Copper (II) oxide 13%
Saran resin 11%
Dextrin 4%

Red:
Potassium Perchlorate 42%
Strontium nitrate 31%
Hexamine 11%
Saran resin 8%
325 mesh spherical aluminum 2%
airfloat charcoal 2%
dextrin 4%

Green:
Potassium perchlorate 42%
Barium nitrate 28%
Hexamine 11%
Saran resin 12%
325 mesh spherical aluminum 2%
charcoal 2%
dextrin 4%

White: (without magnesium or aluminum)
KNO3 57%
sulfur 23%
milled BP 20%


These compositions are the best colors I could get with the least residue with the chems used above. They all light from one coat of slow BP, that is 40% milled and 60% green mix.
I am also working on purple, which is almost done, as well as yellow, and orange. I will list these comps here when I am done.

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Riddick:

What exactly is the Hexamin for? I'm curious 'cause I'm placing an order and wondering if it'd be worth it to get some...

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Frkonaleash1010:

Hexamine is a low temperature burning fuel. It is usually used in blue stars but can be used in others as stated above. Other than its use as a fuel in stars it can be used to make the primary organic peroxide HMTD which is a pretty unstable primary that is sensitive to metals and sunlight.

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justanotherpyro:

Basicaly meaning that it can be substituted partially for a metal fuel to make the star ignite easier?

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Mumbles:

Hexamine is a non-color donating fuel. It burns at a lower temp than charcoal or metals, or redgum. It also widens the flame envelope. This means that is basically makes a bigger flame and therefore more light output.

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al93535:

Ok, after a few more tests the red formula I posted above needs more then one coat of prime. I tested them all in a hard shooting star gun, 2.5 grams BP for two stars that weighed 1 gram. Blue and green took fire well, while the red didn't ignite. After adding two coats it ignited fine.
In an easy break they would light, don't chance it, add two layers. Just an FYI.

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rooster:

Also, to add to mumbles reply, the hexamine is a very clean burning fuel. It means the colour will not be as washed out because of soot and particles as with other fuels. Therefore an ammonium perchlorate(also more clean burning than potassium perchlorate, because of the fact that the potassium salt has solid residues, not only gaseous)/hexamine/other stuff colour will make a very clear colour compared to a potassium perchlorate/other fuel/other ingredients do. However, there are other downsides with ammonium perchlorate, like burntime and incompatibilities.

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d4jon:

So why not use hexamine in everything?

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Crazy_Swede:

Because it doesn't burn that well!

It is usually only added as a secondary fuel, coolant or flame expander.

I also would like to point out that it actually doesn't burn as cool as most people think! Metals, of course, and most resins burn hotter. But, sulphur, stearin (paraffin wax), charcoal and carbohydrates (lactose, sucrose...) all burn cooler compared to hexamin.

It also smells a little fishy and can give some people allergic problems!

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_Po_:

It can't be too cool or they wouldn't use it for fuel tablets for stoves.

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Swany:

They do add wax to boost the flame temp quite substantially, I believe. Personally, I love hexamine as a partial fuel. Sometimes you may need to prime stuff, but it isn't that painful.

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Boro:

@al93535

can I replace saran with PCV and kclo4 with kclo3 in your red/green/blue compositions without decrease of color performance?

and another question: copper(II)oxide=black copper oxide=CuO ?

Thanks,
Boro

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al93535:

Yes you can change both of those chemicals. I don't see why the chlorate would make any real change, except you may want to add an extra 2 percent to make up for the less oxygen. The PVC is different then saran, while I can't see it being a problem, try a pile and see. PVC *should* work.
Yes Black copper oxide = CuO = Copper (II) oxide

Also, the blue and green are great stars with very nice color. The red is as well, But, this star needs serious drying, or a dessicant box. Sr(NO3)2 likes to hold onto water quite well. Otherwise use a non-aqueous binding system.

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pyrohawk:

Yes you can replace those ingredients.... But not directly, for instance since KClO3 has less oxygen then KClO4 you'll need more than 62%... So you will need to mess around a bit.

Yes those are all names for CuO.

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Boro:

Thanks for your answers.
I have read on uk rocketry forum that "Chlorates and any metal oxide, especially copper, are incompatible" and now I don't know what to do.Is this blue comp with kclo4 replaced with kclo3 not safe (no problem with red and green 'cause no metal oxide) ??

here is the link:
http://www.ukrocketr...topic=480&st=30

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Mumbles:

Do a little back research to check it. Did you ever think to google for incompatabilities of Copper oxide or Potassium Chlorate? I'm not going to spend my time helping you, because you spent no time helping yourself. You can't believe everything people say. Pheonix did after all say that Plaster of Paris was calcium carbonate after all.

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Swany:

That is mildly amusing. If he were to be talking about heating to CaO he may be semi-not-so-very-right. As you can add water to convert to Ca(OH)2 and thus to CaCO3 when it dries and can reform in a block. It is odd because he also quotes it as a sulphate.

I really cannot think of any plausible incapibilities with a metal oxide and KClO3. If it gets wet, that could be a different story.

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Mumbles:

There is only a problem between Copper salts and Potassium chlorate when ammonia or ammonium salts are also in there. Copper and Ammonia and incompatable, and chlorate just makes it worse.

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Boro:

" Did you ever think to google for incompatabilities of Copper oxide or Potassium Chlorate?"

Yes, I did and I found link that i metioned above...
My english is not so good and I'm really getting sick when I must read tons od english language pages that google give me.. My knowledge of chemistry is quite low too cause I'm an telecomunications/electronics engeneer and my chemistry education finished at primary school...
but my adventure with pyro lasts for more than 12 years (as you know chemistry is only a little part of pyrotechnic)
And Mumbles if you don't want to help me just don't do it. Anyway thanks for your help guys.

Regards,
Marek

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#2 Rooster

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Posted 30 January 2006 - 05:57 AM

BigBang:

"There is only a problem between Copper salts and Potassium chlorate when ammonia or ammonium salts are also in there. Copper and Ammonia and incompatable, and chlorate just makes it worse."

There is an exception. If the two are suspended in certain binders like R45-M, they can be used together. This is why my blue roccket propellant/ comets can use NH4ClO4 and CuO.

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Boro:

I made blue and red compositions with replacements I metioned above (kclo3 and PCV) and without dextrin. When I tried blue composition I got similar to KNO3/sugar effect (crappy,very pale blue) and with red comp I got yellow/orange flame . That was when I light this comps in powder, *BUT* when I bound it with THF (PCV solvent) and I dried, I got beautiful red and quite good blue (which looks much better in the sky rather than when lighted on piece of concrete. I think really deep blue is reserved for AP comps, but this one is nice too). Green comp has very pale green/yellow flame (even after binding),but I'm not sure whether the proportions were correct. I must try it again.
THF fumes are poisonous so I hope I will get a similar effect with dextrine and water binding and I hope that is possible to roll this comps.

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Boro:

I tried dextrin+water binding with red formula and after drying I got pale red with very slow burning rate (lots of residue) ..but when I bound the same mixture with THF the beatyful red color came back.
What is going on? Is this so importand to disolve PCV (generally chlorine donor)?I used 63um PCV powder, other ingredients weren't milled. Maybe adding NH4Cl will deepen the color?

@al93535, did you bind your formulas with water (because of dextrin) or with saran solvent? (acetone,alcohol?)
Did you exerienced something similar to me?
and what kind of process did you choose for making stars with your formulas (rolled,cut,pumped)?

Using THF for binding have advantages - stars are getting waterproof and very strong, but there is many disadvantages to...

thanks for your help,
Marek

P.S. Sorry for my english.

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What am I doing? I'm talking to an empty telephone. Cause there's a dead man on the other end of this fuckin' line.

#3 firetech

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Posted 27 May 2009 - 08:30 PM

Sorry for the bump-I didn't want to start a new thread. Can the strontium carbonate in Lancaster's organic red star...
Lancaster Organic Red
Potassium perchlorate 64
Strontium carbonate 15
Red gum 9
Charcoal 2
Dextrin 4

...be simply substituted with barium carbonate for a green with minor changes to the overall comp ratio?

#4 LGM

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 03:41 PM

No, the color produced is unusable.

http://creagan.net/f...mpositions.html site has some info on replacing the strontium carbonate with others around the top of the page, it didn't work well with barium.

#5 firetech

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 04:13 PM

Another green star question- I have PVC but not parlon-which this formula calls for, can I substitute the PVC for the parlon?

#6 Seymour

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 05:54 PM

Another green star question- I have PVC but not parlon-which this formula calls for, can I substitute the PVC for the parlon?



PVC has more 'fuel value' and less chlorine than Parlon. This means that to get the closest effect (it will not be the same as with parlon) you will need to add more PVC and to ballance that, remove several % of some other fuel.

If you feel like doing some calculations, use the internets to find out the chemical formulae of the compounds and using arithmetic you can find out the exact changes needed.

Or you can play it by air.

While we are on the 'modifying the formulas' topic, Potassium is a 'green pollutant' and cutting down on the KP could improve it. Of course that would mean increasing the Barium nitrate, and then the parlon, and then, to get it burning well it'd need more metal.

Maybe I've been smoking too much of the reefer, but I cannot see Parlon in the formula, just Saran.

P.S, Saran has even more chlorine and less 'fuel value' that Parlon (though it burns better).

Edited by Seymour, 29 May 2009 - 06:00 PM.


#7 firetech

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 10:23 PM

Should a suitable green be achievable with PVC? I'm not looking for the best green possible, because I don't have the chems for that. I'd just like to see a star that's undisputedly green.

#8 Mumbles

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 11:50 PM

Yes, PVC can of course give acceptable greens. My current favorite uses saran, but could likely just as easily be made with PVC. It's just a matter of what kind you're looking for. If it must be barium carbonate based, with no metals, you might have your work cut out for you, though can probably be done.
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#9 firetech

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 10:49 AM

I was going to use Shimizu's organic green. Which has KP, barium nitrate, red gum, parlon (which i was sub with PVC), and dextrin. Should I use the same ratio of PVC?

Edited by firetech, 31 May 2009 - 10:50 AM.


#10 Mumbles

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:51 AM

Sure, you CAN do whatever you want. Given the small percentage, I wouldn't worry about modifying the amount.
Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

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#11 Seymour

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:47 PM

I would however suggest getting a new green. That may or may not be the same shimizu green that I made years back (my first green) but it was an ever-so slightly greeninsh white.

Metal fuels do so much good with non Barium chlorate greens.

Good luck.

#12 Miech

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 04:48 AM

I made Pihko KP blue yesterday:

63 Potassium Perchlorate
14 Parlon
13 Copper(II)Oxide
10 Red Gum

I added +5% dextrin for rolling them, as I have difficulties with rolling with red gum. For some reason I expect this to be a rather nice blue for a KP star, I just don't know why :) .
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#13 swervedriver

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 09:30 AM

That is a nice blue. The Pihko KP blue I made had a lot of slag for some reason though. I prefer the Shimizu Blue 70 compostion over the Pikho for that reason, and it is also a nice blue.

#14 FREAKYDUTCHMEN

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 01:49 PM

Almost the same as this blue:
Potassium Perchlorate 66.1
Copper Oxide 13.4
Parlon 10.7
Red Gum 9.8
Dextrin 5

It's a very deep blue, better than the shimizu KP #2 blue.

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#15 Piet

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 04:08 PM

Almost the same as this blue:
Potassium Perchlorate 66.1
Copper Oxide 13.4
Parlon 10.7
Red Gum 9.8
Dextrin 5

It's a very deep blue, better than the shimizu KP #2 blue.


Nice shell.

Made a similar blue but is still to hot for 3 inch, gives a nasty white dot in the middle. still lack of brilliance.
When i get my hands on dechlorane i will try Wilbur's blue.

#16 Mumbles

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Posted 01 June 2009 - 08:30 PM

Wilbur blue is a good blue, but if you're looking for brilliance, you will be disappointed. It is pretty dim in relation to many other blues.
Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.

#17 firetech

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 08:50 AM

I saw a baby blue peony shell that I loved during the 4th. Anyone know how to get this blue?

#18 Zmuro

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 01:14 AM

I did some blue star testing and I don't know which one is the best from this video:

#19 Pyro09

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 04:22 AM

Almost the same as this blue:
Potassium Perchlorate 66.1
Copper Oxide 13.4
Parlon 10.7
Red Gum 9.8
Dextrin 5

It's a very deep blue, better than the shimizu KP #2 blue.


Wow, that's an awesome shell! I'm going to build some 4" shells soon.. But I would really like to know which comp you used as outer layer of your Blue stars! Could you post it?

Greetings from Germany!

#20 Mumbles

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Posted 06 August 2009 - 06:14 PM

I liked the first two blues Zmuro. The third one turned too red/orange at the end for my preferences. I consider that a flaw when I see it.
Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.




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