AdmiralDonSnider Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 This thread is inspired by another one over at Pyroguideforum, asking about useful pyro glues apart from hot melt, paste and elmers. I´m taking it as an opportunity to cast some light on the definately underrepresented topic of basic materials, in this special case: glue. What does the industry use e.g. for gluing in plugs, disks etc.? In chinese consumer bombettes a transparent and rock hard kind of adhesive is found. Don´t know what they´re using. Classic sources such as Shimizu present some options not commonly seen in amateur repertoires e.g. Casein, Casein adhesive (Casein 77%; Slaked lime(Calcium hydroxide) 16; Sodium carbonate 7) or waterglass based glue. Something non-sticky when liquid, easily applicable with a brush, not thin enough to flow away, paper penentrating, drying rock hard would be optimum, at least for plugs. Anybody with some more insight in commercial fireworks glues here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I am told that the Chinese use a rice starch glue which is a lot like wheat paste glue in the final product. Not sure what is used on the crowns though.... -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stckmndn Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 SGRS? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 I really use relatively little glue besides paste in making fireworks. Hot glue is completely overused in my opinion. I really only use it to secure fuses into ball shells or end disks, or comets onto ball shells if I'm being lazy. When I see it being used when rolling tubes or cans, or to secure flaps on canister shells, I know there is something wrong. Even elmers glue I use more as a sealant than anything. I glue on end disks for salute inserts for example, but they're also then taped, spiked, and pasted When I worked at the firework factory most things were actually secured with string, tape, or friction fitted. There were a few places where elmers glue was used, but hot glue was actually used rather minimally. There was one more major use of it, but it's one of those things that I don't know if I can talk about without giving away the whole manufacture process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 Hot glue has some useful properties. For one thing, it's more or less instantly strong, so you don't have to wait holding parts together. That's very handy for attaching things like lift cups or tacking QM to the shell body. It's also a gap filler and nothing else does the job quite so well for sealing the tops of comets. Traditional hide glue was a kind of hot melt so it's not exactly a new thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 12, 2011 Share Posted July 12, 2011 When Mike Swisher talks about using hide glue, I believe he is talking about the liquid stabilized stuff available. Elmers glue was meant to replace it, but he seems against using white or carpenters glue. I'd bet carpenters glue would probably work pretty well to seal around spolettes and fuse and stuff. White glue seems to like to leave air bubbles and shrink more than carpenters glue in my experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 When Mike Swisher talks about using hide glue, I believe he is talking about the liquid stabilized stuff available. Elmers glue was meant to replace it, but he seems against using white or carpenters glue. I'd bet carpenters glue would probably work pretty well to seal around spolettes and fuse and stuff. White glue seems to like to leave air bubbles and shrink more than carpenters glue in my experience. The Swish was talking about hot hide glue. He just mentioned a heated glue pot just a few weeks ago. My gripe with carpenters glue is its brittleness. I added 10% *Casein (cheese glue) to my Titebond lll and it became much more flexible. *Cracker sold a 10# box of the stuff last year for $10.00 plus shipping. The mice really like it ! -dag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 I normally see him specify liquid hide glue, which would seem to indicate the stabilized stuff, not the molten stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted July 13, 2011 Share Posted July 13, 2011 Hide glue is nothing more than thick unrefined gelatin, cooked out of scrap bones and animal skins. If you add water, you get thin unrefined jello (with its well-known adhesive properties), so it's made workable by melting it. The advantage of this over PVA (Elmers) and other water-based adhesives is that it sets up almost instantly and - most important - doesn't make the job wet. I don't see how anyone can practice the art without either plastic hot melt or hide glue on hand, though I suppose epoxy could be used if cost was no object. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Working for a fireworks-importer from China in 2009 - 2010, i lived in Liuyang for 6 months and been there 5 times now. What my biggest suprise was, the simplicity and effectiveness of the Chinese when making fireworks. The glue they use is more something like a resin, all though it is bound by water. I am pretty sure it must be thickened waterglass or something alike. I have never seen it anywhere else, and the sacks (25kg white powder) had only Chinese writing on them. The factory workers/owners are poor at English, if at all. So many questions remain unanswered just because of the language barrier. Another thing they use by 1000kg's... resinox. C48H42O7 they use it as a fuel in almost every colored star. Some google-ing only mentioned one distributor. These 25kg sacks mentioned the name ''resinox'' and the formula, next to some chinese writing. Stuff like red gum, they don't even know what it is, just like black aluminum. It is a whole different world comparing to our ''western'' pyrotechnicians. And there is a LOT to learn for us. Living there between the factories has given me experience what would take me 40 years of active hobby here in the west. Especially when it comes to effectiveness. And glue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave321 Posted July 14, 2011 Share Posted July 14, 2011 Working for a fireworks-importer from China in 2009 - 2010, i lived in Liuyang for 6 months and been there 5 times now. What my biggest suprise was, the simplicity and effectiveness of the Chinese when making fireworks. The glue they use is more something like a resin, all though it is bound by water. I am pretty sure it must be thickened waterglass or something alike. I have never seen it anywhere else, and the sacks (25kg white powder) had only Chinese writing on them. The factory workers/owners are poor at English, if at all. So many questions remain unanswered just because of the language barrier. Another thing they use by 1000kg's... resinox. C48H42O7 they use it as a fuel in almost every colored star. Some google-ing only mentioned one distributor. These 25kg sacks mentioned the name ''resinox'' and the formula, next to some chinese writing. Stuff like red gum, they don't even know what it is, just like black aluminum. It is a whole different world comparing to our ''western'' pyrotechnicians. And there is a LOT to learn for us. Living there between the factories has given me experience what would take me 40 years of active hobby here in the west. Especially when it comes to effectiveness. And glue. urea - formaldehyde is a white powdered resin, which is water activated,maybe it was that ? i believe its used by the chinese as a binder dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 I don't see how anyone can practice the art without either plastic hot melt or hide glue on hand, though I suppose epoxy could be used if cost was no object. You can make a shell with out using any hot glue at all using traditional techniques Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 You can make a shell with out using any hot glue at all using traditional techniques Yes, that is what the hide glue also mentioned is for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Yes, that is what the hide glue also mentioned is for. no I meant no hot glue alternatives just paper paste and string and alittle masking tape here and there a spolete can be firmly secured with out the use of hot glue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 no I meant no hot glue alternatives just paper paste and string and alittle masking tape here and there a spolete can be firmly secured with out the use of hot glue TIME OUT! Masking tape is not "traditional techniques". And the hide glue mentioned in Weingart, Kentish, Cutbush etc is the kind you melt in a glue pot. You may of course do what you wish but "traditional techniques" do not include self-adhesive tapes or modern plastic emulsion glues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 TIME OUT! Masking tape is not "traditional techniques". And the hide glue mentioned in Weingart, Kentish, Cutbush etc is the kind you melt in a glue pot. You may of course do what you wish but "traditional techniques" do not include self-adhesive tapes or modern plastic emulsion glues. the masking tape isjnt a fundamental part of the shell and only temporarily holds the paper where paper and paste would be used and by paste I mean wheat paste not something store baught I remember watching a dvd couple years ago by lewis someone or other (old italian dude last name starts with an s) he used masking tape and still called his shells traditional Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 Semenza. He can call whatever he wants traditional because he is well studied and a master. There is definitely a difference between knowing the real methods and making modifications and using bastardized youtube techniques. If you don't understand the process, you're doomed to repeat the same mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrojig Posted July 15, 2011 Share Posted July 15, 2011 urea - formaldehyde is a white powdered resin, which is water activated,maybe it was that ? i believe its used by the chinese as a binder dave I believe that this is probably the closest to the glue that Admiral requested .. This glue ( resin) is probably the closest thing to epoxy , and drys clear if Im not mistaken . I would like to know ratios of the urea/ Formaldehyde glue how ever... I have it somewhere buried in the stacks of notes and pyro files long forgotten ..lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vrizla Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Isn't dextrin also used to paste in China? I use it from time to time, it dries rock hard, my home made stuff mixes up a little chunky. I thought about running it through the blender and storing it in an air tight jar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Another glue to try: Dry ingredients to be sifted together and added slowly to the water. If the waterglass is liquid, subtract 50 parts water and use 66 parts of waterglass in place of the dry waterglass and water. Parts by weight Casein 100 Sodium Silicate (waterglass 40% solution) 66 Calcium hydroxide (pickeling or hydrated lime) 20 Water 200 It has 7 hours working time. -guf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 I have some experience with "Resinox". It's a bright orange powder, and I've had it described to me as "phenolated paraformaldehyde". It certainly burns very well with the common firework oxidisers, and is certainly the strongest alcohol activated binder I have worked with. Spitfire, the empirical formula you posted, does that come from a reliable source? It would be quite nice to be able to work out stichiometry with it. As for "inert" glues, I've never come across hide glue in my personal experience, but plenty of PVA and wheat/rice paste! Possibly hide glue is used for the things I've used PVA for? If I had to choose a single glue to use, I'd go for wheat paste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbobaker Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Watching a couple how to videos I noticed that some folks roll their rocket (etc.) tubes with only a dab or two of glue (usually hot glue) on the last wrap of the tube and it seems to work fine. Is that for real?I've always pasted mine from the starting roll till the end with gravy or diluted aliphatic resin glue and then waited a week or more for them to dry. Have I been wasting my time and ... glue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 It's known as "dry rolling" despite the fact that some "wet" (glue)is used. It really depends on the application, and in many cases you can get away with dry rolling. In others you cannot. Fully glued tubes are stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbobaker Posted July 18, 2011 Share Posted July 18, 2011 (edited) Thanks. Edited July 18, 2011 by Bilbobaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 I have some experience with "Resinox". It's a bright orange powder, and I've had it described to me as "phenolated paraformaldehyde". It certainly burns very well with the common firework oxidisers, and is certainly the strongest alcohol activated binder I have worked with. Spitfire, the empirical formula you posted, does that come from a reliable source? It would be quite nice to be able to work out stichiometry with it. Yes, this is the formula as it was handed over to me on paper, and as the writing on the bags. I worked with dozens of different factories there all with their own chemical datasheets. They all listed C48H42O7 combined with the name ''resinox''. If it is wrong, all the Chinese and the producer are wrong, which seems highly unlikely to me. But, as mentioned above, this is unfortunately the only information i have. So don't shoot me if i turn out to be wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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