pillyg Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Does anyone know about ALICE or Al ICE its a frozen mush of aluminum and water. Here are some videos of it (test) (talking about it) Im wondering what mesh aluminum you need. Also, what are the procedure specifics and the amounts of water and AL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 Oh, I am definitely trying this. Dark aluminum is my best guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillyg Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 OK!!! tell me your results and proportions. It looks strait forward but you have to keep it in the freezer or else if will be unstable. (right now i think just keeping it outside will work It said nanoaluminum so what ever the finest stuff you have is would be my best guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 80 nanometers, I believe. The finest Al you can normally buy is about 3 micrometers, which is about 40 times bigger and probably won't work. This is military stuff, first developed about 12 years ago for use in highly energetic thermites and unspeakably hazardous to handle. Note: blue light wavelength is about 400 nanometers. You would not be able to resolve these particles with any optical microscope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillyg Posted January 23, 2011 Author Share Posted January 23, 2011 i think its still worth a shot. it might not be as good as the vid, but its certainly better then BP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillyg Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 i found a place to buy some. its CRAZY expensive and discontinued but if there is 1 there might be more.http://advancedmaterials.us/13MN-0001.htm here is a place that has it but dont know how much it costs or how to get ithttp://www.stanfordmaterials.com/nano.html (scroll down) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I wonder if the Star Molecule popcorn style aluminum would react. That's assuming they're actually around. I haven't seen anything new about the testing they requested some members here to preform in quite some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richtee Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Holy CRAP. Man..that makes it easy eh? If you can get the material Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillyg Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 yeah getting it is the problem though someone should try it with pyro aluminum and post the results. It shouldn't take long Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richtee Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Sooo wait... what's the deal? Burns wet? or it's dried from a paste and the intersticial oxygen is enough of an oxydizer? Or was there a "component" not shown? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I see Stanford has several grades, 80nm down to 18nm. It has a hazmat number, UN1396, dangerous when wet. There are 248 pages of suppliers for aluminum powder on alibaba.com - probably some of them are nano particles, if you have the patience to search them. But be prepared to find the minimum order is something like 5 metric tons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Sooo wait... what's the deal? Burns wet? or it's dried from a paste and the intersticial oxygen is enough of an oxydizer? Or was there a "component" not shown?It's similar to a thermite reaction if the video explaining the fuel is accurate. Very fine aluminum reacting with the oxide of hydrogen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) here is a self explanatory test its not a small video if anyone really wants I can upload a compressed low quality version video also it should be noted that the flame coming up from above the samples is from the dry wood it was placed on burning and not the aluminum itself wet 80mesh magnesium is also excited by water but Im sure you all already assumed that I just needed an excuse to do it again EDIT: I got bored so heres a low quality version Edited January 24, 2011 by Ralph Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anapogeetoofar Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 Here's the thing, even IF coarser aluminum works, it isn't going to work with cardboard casings and clay nozzles. The Burn rate exponent (n) is .76 that is VERY high, R-candy's is .31. And judging by what I have seen, the burn rate coefficient (A) is probably very low, it'll be lower with coarser aluminum so you are going to need some crazy high KN's to get this propellant up to pressure. All that, and the high temperature of this propellant adds up to metal (or lined phenolic) casings, and graphite inserts in nozzles. If you like the idea of an "easy" and "inert" propellant, maybe you could try playing around with CO2/Mg. linky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) That's all true, but who cares. It's expensive compared to the usual pyro propellants and not at all practical for use in fireworks. I simply think it would be interesting to make a thermite with ice. Edit: A simple demonstration Ralph. It shows that a reaction is possible with larger Al, at least in some circumstances. Edited January 24, 2011 by NightHawkInLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillyg Posted January 24, 2011 Author Share Posted January 24, 2011 I agree with NHIL. Its not practical for pyro or evem model rocketry, but the idea of making fire with water is pretty cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Water can be reduced fairly easily. I recall that town gas used to be made by blowing steam through burning coke, which produced hydrogen and carbon monoxide and enough extra heat to boil water for the steam. It wouldn't surprise me if that was still the cheapest and most efficient way to generate hydrogen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 (edited) I preformed my first static test today using StarMolecule Al. Assuming the proper reaction is: 2 Al + 3 H2O -> Al2O3 + 3 H2 The stoichiometric ratio by mass is: H2O - 49Al - 51 I used a 50/50 ratio with +5% fruit pectin as a gelling agent. Now having worked with the composition I now believe a gelling agent may not be necessary. After testing the fuel both in the open at room temp and in a cored grain brought down well below freezing, it looks like the loss of energy in the frozen grain slows the reaction significantly. In addition, the composition was very difficult to ignite. It would not take fire from granulated BP/Mg which I used to fill the core. It did ignite when a torch was taken directly to the end of the grain. I suppose one large problem with my test is the grain was ignited from the end rather than deep in the core. The fire never seemed to make it all the way inside, and instead progressed like an end burner, producing no thrust. I am using small grains for testing, at 2"x3/4" with a 1 1/2"x1/4" core. I am using no nozzle for now. I'll have to do another test without the gelling agent and another form of ignition along the entire core, or at the very least deep inside, and see how the results change. If anyone has suggestions, on ignition especially, I would appreciate it. The composition ignites quite easily at room temp so this was not a problem I was expecting. Edited February 25, 2011 by NightHawkInLight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillyg Posted February 25, 2011 Author Share Posted February 25, 2011 Great Night!!! it works Try igniting it with thermite. I know high powered model rockets use thermite sometimes to ignite them. You can ignite the thermite by mixing BP with magnesium shavings but you probably already know that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anapogeetoofar Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 Try a slug of a HOT pyrogen at the head end of the grain, the Purdue guys actually had to use an H-108 motor mounted in the bulkhead to achieve ignition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted February 25, 2011 Share Posted February 25, 2011 High metal content motors need to be ignited at the top like apogee says and with a stepped spindle, the fire at the top does not have to be too hot nor do you have to worry about burning too much fuel off before the lower portion ignites. Think about zink motors for a moment. A metal disk is placed over the nozzle so that pressure can build before the rocket takes off. This is probably why the rocket burned like an end burner and not a core burner. High metal rockets need to build pressure to fly, that means that paper tubes are not a very good choice, especially with water and Aluminum for fuel. An aluminum tube will probably be needed for a successful test but a CATO is also likely so a video camera, a 12" mirrored tile and a baracade is in order on this one. NHIL, you could use CMC for a gelling agent as well but the ALICE fuel that is being tested by NASA is flash frozen in spindled containers so that it is -20° F maximum when ignited. The direct benefit of this is that space is COLD! So the fuel will keep well. They are also trying to make a gelled version so you may have a head start on them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted February 26, 2011 Share Posted February 26, 2011 High metal content motors need to be ignited at the top like apogee says and with a stepped spindle, the fire at the top does not have to be too hot nor do you have to worry about burning too much fuel off before the lower portion ignites. Think about zink motors for a moment. A metal disk is placed over the nozzle so that pressure can build before the rocket takes off. This is probably why the rocket burned like an end burner and not a core burner. High metal rockets need to build pressure to fly, that means that paper tubes are not a very good choice, especially with water and Aluminum for fuel. An aluminum tube will probably be needed for a successful test but a CATO is also likely so a video camera, a 12" mirrored tile and a baracade is in order on this one. NHIL, you could use CMC for a gelling agent as well but the ALICE fuel that is being tested by NASA is flash frozen in spindled containers so that it is -20° F maximum when ignited. The direct benefit of this is that space is COLD! So the fuel will keep well. They are also trying to make a gelled version so you may have a head start on them I think I'm going to try a repeat of my previous test without the gel and use a hot thermite ignition before trying anything more complex. I could even go out and gather some of the ash remaining from the first burn to use in a Mg/Al2O3 thermite ignition. Why not recycle. Speaking of which, I find it funny that this is looked at as a green fuel, what political BS. Imagine what amount of CO2 is pumped out to make a pound of 80 nanometer Al. Just because you can't see pollution billowing out of the rocket as it takes off doesn't mean it's not there. Not that I'm entirely convinced of the negative impact of CO2 anyway. Back on topic. I'm sure you're right that this fuel needing to be under pressure to reach full potential Dag, but I'm going to try to reach that point one step at a time. I came as close to flash freezing the comp as possible. The tooling and tube were cooled to about 0 f, and the slurry was brought right to the edge of 32 f before pouring in the tube. I would guess it was frozen through in under 10 minutes, but I had time to kill so I let it sit an hour. It was right around 0 f when I touched it off. I may as well mix up some fuel with my -200 mesh Mg while I'm at it. A functional result seems doubtful, but why not try. For that I may need the gel to properly suspend particles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillyg Posted February 26, 2011 Author Share Posted February 26, 2011 Yeah I agree about the CO2 thingI think you should try it with thermite. This sounds interesting and thanks for being a guinea pig for this night Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted February 28, 2011 Share Posted February 28, 2011 I've tested two more fuels and have so far best liked the burn of one using both Star Al & -200 Mg. It has a steady and moderately fast burn. So far it's the first I've tried that looks like it could lift a rocket. Ignition is still a big problem. A thermite ignitor did no good. In fact when the fuel was cast into a grain and the thermite failed, I was unable to ignite it directly with a torch until I fractured the grain to create a rough surface. Short of filling the core completely to the brim with thermite I'm not sure what to do next. I have a fuel now that's got me excited, if only I could light the stuff from inside a core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pillyg Posted February 28, 2011 Author Share Posted February 28, 2011 Hum. Try talking to Oldguy about his comp 9. He posted some pics of it and it looks REALLY hot and its not thermite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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