Copper Thermite tips?

[KillaX]

I want to first state Copper Thermite is the first pyro I got my self into. I know copper thermite is one of the most violent thermites you can make, and usually explodes more than it acts like thermite. I purchased my materials from ebay, About a pound of each from Alpha Chemicals. I read the MSDS on how to handle these metals, especially Cupric oxide. Rather nasty stuff if you don't handle it properly.

 

I have done research seeing the correct mixture ratio is 4.42:1. For every gram of aluminum, 4.42 grams of CuO is required. Some said, it can be a mass or volume ratio.

 

So. There's a golden mixture for thermite. As well as a golden mixture for explosion. I want to use it for the explosive side. I was wondering if anyone out there, has experimented enough to find the right mixture, the most reactive, explosive mixture. I have seen videos on youtube that show really good results, but no one knows what ratio was used.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4T1SQy-Hdsw

 

Rather the main explosion being seen and heard is the detonator, i dont know. So! For those who have actually messed with this stuff, I'd love to hear what ratios you have tried, and what gave the most reactive result. I wasn't sure if more AL would cause it to be more violent, or more CuO. I'm limited on each, else I would be putting together 20 mixtures to see what makes the biggest bang. Thought I would check with the community Thanks!

[Ralph]

you sound like a kewl you should be starting with bp

 

and no it is not 4.4:1 by volume it is most certainty by weight pyros never use volumes CuO thermite is just like flash though I think it may be a bit more powerfull (though it may just appear to be because of its higher density) I personally use 4:1 as its easier to weigh and doesn't seem to affect performance and should be brighter (though I haven't noticed this)

[KillaX]

you sound like a kewl you should be starting with bp

 

and no it is not 4.4:1 by volume it is most certainty by weight pyros never use volumes CuO thermite is just like flash though I think it may be a bit more powerfull (though it may just appear to be because of its higher density) I personally use 4:1 as its easier to weigh and doesn't seem to affect performance and should be brighter (though I haven't noticed this)

 

Hah, yeah. I recently made an order today on cannon fuse. I bought some tubes and plastic balls. I want to fill the small 1" ball with copper thermite. Knowing, when it goes off, it will make a loud bang. I want to also get ABS pipe, plug one end, and put a thin about of bp at the bottom. Place my plastic sphere in, with a time delay fuse, and burry it. In hopes it will shoot the ball into the air, and 2 seconds from launch, explode. I know copper thermite is very fast reaction, so it's loud. I did a small test in an open pen tube, about 3mm thick, and it was louder than a balloon exploding!

 

Speaking of so...Whats an easy binder to get ahold of? Any that you can buy from local stores? I'd like to be able to use binder to roll some Al+CuO balls for experimenting.

 

My last test was a fail. I had no fuses, only magnesium ribbon. It kept going out a few mm above the tube. It one time made the plastic go on fire..2 minutes of black smoke later, a loud thud went off because the tube was all gone. Made a large yellow smoke cloud in the air. It wasn't loud, just deep. Windows rattled in the house I was told.

[Gunzway]

Sllloooooowwww dowwwnnnn kidddoo..

 

Do you have any clue on what you're doing? I bet you haven't even conducted sensitivity tests on the thermite. You'll be surprised to hear that CuO/Al thermite is actually quite sensitive. It will also cause nasty burns if an accident occurs. It's very painful to have to scrub the metallic metal residues off your hand if something goes wrong. It is prone to being sensitive to impact, to the point where lifting it from a tube has been known to set it off.

 

Salutes are no place for a beginner to begin. CuO/Al thermite is essentially flash powder, a mixture that needs to be treated with much respect. It is evident from your posts, you have A LOT more reading to do. There's no terms such 'golden mixture' in this hobby. What you wanted, was the stoichiometric ratio. If you want do this hobby properly and get some nice results, start off with the basics; black powder. Make your own black powder, make some fountains and do a hell load of reading.

 

After having at least a year or two under your belt, if you want to then do some experimenting, then go for it. But to experiment with things you have no idea about and have little experience with, you're asking for an accident.

[dagabu]

I recently made an order today on cannon fuse. I bought some tubes and plastic balls.

 

You DO understand that you advertised here in a public forum that you bought tubes and balls from Canonfuse.com in direct conflict with their policy on boomers?

 

 

***Attention flash/boom makers*** Making ANY type of exploding devices such as M-80's, Cherry Bombs, quarter sticks or silver salutes without a Federal High Explosive Manufacturing (Type 20) license is a very serious offense. If we believe that you are attempting to order materials for producing illegal explosive devices in any quantity, we will reject your order. At our discretion, we may limit the sale of visco fuse, tubes, end plugs and plastic ball shells. While there are no set limits on these items, we will refuse orders for any amount we consider to be out of the ordinary. There is no limitation on sales of materials for general use in pyrotechnics.

 

 

[dagabu]

Well, I tried to reason with the kid but he wont listen, Mumbles, Sidewinder, PM me, I have his PM to show you all. Looks like you are gonna have to ban this b00m3r.

[KillaX]

You DO understand that you advertised here in a public forum that you bought tubes and balls from Canonfuse.com in direct conflict with their policy on boomers?

 

And you DO undrestand this is the basics of a motar. Lets go over what one is.

 

Apparently, to Cannonfuse, A mortar is a plastic pipe, with a cap on one end and a open barrel. Hmm, sounds like what i just said. ABS pipe. cap a end. However, we all know plastic. If you use too much powder, it splinters. How do we prevent this? Stick it in the ground. If it explodes, you live. Next, a launching source. Balls of powder dont just fly in the air for no reason, we need powder to blast it into the air. Simple way for this? small trace of bp. Shoots the ball into the air, time delay fuse blows it off. I have also personally asked fellow cop on his knowlage of fireworks. and its not illegal for me to be launching a custom made small firework into the air. I see thousands of videos and images coming off these forums showing people launching 'fireworks' into the air. and me launching a ball of thermite that makes nothing more than a small bang with smoke, isn't illegal here.

 

So my friend Dagabu, I'm not sure where you are getting this idea of confronting me privately about pipebombs and all, but a mortar is not a pipe bomb. It's stuck in the ground for safety reasons of a DIY launcher.

 

Second, I figured its OK to post that, seeing how many open forums seem to put thsi into public..I found out about the site actually from a Blog..So i guess a couple million people from a blog post now know. Seeing i saw this site posted on many other websites in large ads and banners, i figured they must not care about hiding it.

 

So if i offended anyone, I'm sorry, but i did my research.

[Gunzway]

I think I have a talent for picking out the ignorant .

 

Dude... CuO/Al is no composition to be playing around with, don't you listen? It's quite sensitive. How the hell are you mixing this mixture?

I sure hope it is the diaper method. You clearly haven't done your research. You shouldn't be launching this composition in the air, in my opinion. At LEAST not just primarily CuO/Al.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Gunzway

[KillaX]

Let me explain a little bit.

 

First, I just started to get into this stuff. Aluminum and copper oxide was the first items I bought because it was the first thing I was shown by a friend. So I thought thermite, fun to make....Found it's very violent, fast reaction, usually explosive if not mixed right. So I bought it and stuck to small quantities. I mix it by using 2 cups. I put it on a scale, do 1 gram of aluminum and 4 of Copper oxide. I then put the two into a ceramic dish, and mix together using the end of a plastic spoon. Once mixed, I take small samples out to mess with.

 

That being said, I figured I don't own any other metals. And I'm new and have no idea what it takes to make a decent firework. So I figured it would be easy to use what I have, to make my first mortar launched shell. But what do I have? bp and thermite. My goal here want "let's make a M80" it was "Can I manage to launch a shell into the air and have it go off at a good height" then go on from there learning how to make fireworks...then slowly upgrade to slightly larger shells to fit in more stuff like stars, rain-as I call it, different colors, etc.

 

My point of being at this forums isn't "how do I make a bomb" it's how to make fireworks. I onl have thermite at this time, so it's what I've been using until I learn more about the creation of fireworks. So if I left any miss-leading thoughts on who I am, I Apologize. The world of Pyro is clearly taken more seriously and more in depth than the world of High voltage, so I was not fully aware that my experimenting befor going to the real deal, would miss lead people into thinking my only goal here is to learn how to make bombs and nothing but bombs.

[Guest no6]

Sounds like you want to make a more powerful bomb, not a firework.

[NightHawkInLight]

The problem here is you are starting from the most dangerous, and by far the most legally troublesome of anything a pyro will ever use. Whatever the cop you talked to says, the ATF are the real enforcers. You say you are starting with a simple aerial salute, then planning on moving on to typical fireworks. Those salutes are more dangerous, more likely to cause incapacitating injuries, and more likely to land you in jail than the largest of firework shells made with the proper components. If you truly want to learn about fireworks you have come to the right place, but you will quickly need to accept that the members talking to you at the moment have decades of firsthand experience. You will NEVER find a legitimate builder of fireworks that says a beginner is fine to play with CuO thermite, flash, or any other similar composition. If you cannot accept that you need to change how you are starting into this hobby, you will quickly be banned, as we will have nothing to do with your injuries or legal trouble as a result. If you can however accept that you need to change your priorities and learn a little more about what building fireworks is all about, you will be welcome, and you will learn much.

 

Edit: I believe all I have said was covered here before I posted, but it is worth reiterating. Welcome to the forum. In due time you will be replying in similar ways to new members wanting to make a quick boom. At the moment, I suggest you make a post with all of your available chemicals and get some advice about how to safely utilize them in some starter projects.

Edited January 10, 2011 by NightHawkInLight

[Juiceh]

Making a device that launches a shell that explodes and sends MOLTEN METAL everywhere sounds like a really bad idea.... Fun to watch from a safe distance I bet though.. Edited January 10, 2011 by Juiceh

[Guest no6]

Who ya gonna kill KillaX?

[NightHawkInLight]

Who ya gonna kill KillaX?

That is not helpful to anyone.

[DasSchaben]

KillaX, you've managed quite a few complex and potentially extremely dangerous electrical DIY projects. I wondered about any safety precautions you had taken there; you're obviously highly intelligent, so it puzzles me that you would be so quick to play around with thermite and jump straight into pyro. I've seen kids/adults on Youtube blowing things up with flash powder and various accelerants, and those people are still in one piece. Thanks to your posts, I'm starting to understand the mentality behind that. You jump right in to the deep end, you learn fast, and you start out with small samples to "mess with". Still, you're intelligent. You didn't quite strike me as the type who's out there with illegally obtained explosives and propane tanks, blowing up computers and washing machines. (No idea how they managed that one -- the video had been removed.)

 

Maybe you're not out to make bombs, but. . . I defer to NightHawkInLight's post. The pyro community is not what you're used to. No idea how this will eventually work out for you, coming from the perspective of someone (you) who has already played around with high voltage and thermite, etc., but I would suggest paying attention to the advice of the established members here. Can you understand our reactions to what you're saying?

 

Good luck, seriously.

[KillaX]

Yes I can understand why people are acting the way they are. And I know with electricity at least, 100% of what I'm doing. All my projects safety is kept in mind in the design. Capacitors are different, so the general rule of "don't touch anything, if you must, use a bleeder to drain the charge". I know far well my 1KJ bank will do perm. Damage if you touch it. High voltage, I use 4th PVC pipe. And I've seen things like you tell me...Kids on YouTube, 12" microwave arc...they hold onto a 3 inch wooden rod. I don't chance death. 4ft for 12" is my rule.

 

And I can also understand why people freak over my beginning use of copper thermite, seeing it's a highly explosive mixture. I can also see why people would think I just want to explode stuff...this isn't true. My use of capacitors to blow things up was done to stress test the system. I need to make sure the stud diodes and SCR can handle the intense current spike from shorts. This way, for a coilgun project, I know my stuff won't fail on me. What better than to do hard shorts through garbage laying around for testing.

 

My use of this forums is for learning how to construct fireworks. Like using tubes to make a shower of sparks, not just one big poof...

 

When it comes to metals, I'm not sure if there's any place local. I got my aluminum powder and copper oxide off eBay. These are the only metals I own, besides magnesium ribbon. I'd have more but have no idea where to even start...the seller for alpha chemicals, I YouTube a bit of them, to find not much use. I thought of getting iron oxide, but wasn't sure what use it would be for me.

[dagabu]

While there are uses for all three metals you have, simple Potassium Nitrate, Charcoal and Sulfur are always going to be the place we push you to when you begin the pyro trail.

 

If we step back in history, we will see that ALL pyro got it's start with these three chemicals and Black Powder was and is the single most important combination both in pyro and for the worlds growth from farmers to manufactures (lots of history to talk about later).

 

The basics of fireworks have all been put into a nice book that has been offered by Skylighter, written by Ned Gorski for Harry Gilliam, the owner of Skylighter.com. This single book will benefit you beyond imagination and will prime you for other books that dig even deeper into pyrotechnics, the art of fire. It's called Turbo-Pyro, horrible name but a very good book.

 

If you need to find affordable suppliers that are reputable, post a query here, I am sure you will get a whole bunch of references from the field here.

[KillaX]

Sounds good!

 

Yeah, I've been trying to google-maps the zealand -- Holland -- Grand Rapids area of Michigan to locate a place that could posibly carry at LEAST aluminum powder and other common metals...But have not found any so far. I'm sure the beginner materials you listed can be found locally, for sure black powder and charcoal, Not sure about potassium nitrate or sulfur though.

 

What is best to start with? Small mixtures in bowls or start with shells/tubes? 1" shells may not get me far, as far as effects go, but it will still get me enough to make a single thing like a small mini spread of green...or gold....I had to downgrade on tube size, due to stock issues, so the tubes I have are going to be 9/16" by 1.5" Short, but best to begin small...especially when I need to make them work and not just end up in a mess such as a single thrust. Fountain would be nice Will sometime take a look into that book.

[dagabu]

Fountains are a good place to start, BP, some iron filings, you have a fountain!

 

I suggest that you start with 3" ball shells. There will be a few that suggest smaller shells but I find it difficult to get my fingers into the shell and arrange the stars on smaller shells. You need to get a mortar (tubes are for crackers ) and make some BP from scratch. No cheating and buying it, this is going to be a home-cooked shell!!

 

Get a bag of KNO3 here its under $70.00 for a 50# bag. Trust me, if you start making shells, fountains and the like, you will go through it fast!! Charcoal is easy. You can make your own, buy it already in airfloat mesh or get lump charcoal and grind it down to airfloat yourself. Sulfur... Well, my source dried up so you may have to get it from DUDA. Its the good stuff though, rubber makers sulfur, the best there is.

 

PM me, I have some reading for you.

[NightHawkInLight]

First priority after you have all you need to make black powder, join MPAG: http://www.mpag.org/

 

We host shoots all over Michigan, about 5 times per year. There are many members who are also highly skilled builders, and even more members who are skilled at display fireworks. Here are two displays put on by members this past summer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReW6Q2vVaas

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGP2Ktow0eE

 

Joining a club is the best way to learn firsthand, as well as shoot your own fireworks legally.

[dagabu]

Big Bang was very nice, my wife and I Ohhhh'd and Awwwwwww'd a lot that that one.

[KillaX]

So MPAG is an event thats put together for people to come down to see firework-sync-music to watch and enjoy, along with being able to learn the creation/basics of fireworks?

 

Depending where and when, This summer when my classes are out, I can see if it works for me to have a time to drive down with a friend to check the place out =P Never seen anything more than your common Grand Rapids firework show. Even the videos you showed, are a lot more interesting and amazing than what I can see here that lasts for only 10-15 mins with very few fireworks.

 

Yeah...Without a doubt, if theres a show (easily should be) between May-25 and September, I'll 90% for sure be there...

Edited January 11, 2011 by KillaX

[dagabu]

MPAG members choreographed, set up and fired that display!! It was in Appleton Wisconsin at the PGI convention last August. The MPAG won lots or awards.

 

The next convention will be in West Fargo Noth Dakota next August. I taught a class as did several others. You get to build and shoot on site and play with 1.3g stuff all week long.

[NightHawkInLight]

MPAG isn't an event, it's a club that has events. Not every shoot has a choreographed display, but they all have many home built shells and rockets, as well as many commercial fireworks. There occasionally are also classes held for and by members. Here is more video of some of the things done at past MPAG shoots:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZQb4vG8JWMhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psVTiEnSDEwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15IEU1b3yhA

 

There is an area for the public to view from, but you must be a member to be out on the firing line as I was when filming these videos. You must also be a member to shoot your own fireworks.

Edited January 11, 2011 by NightHawkInLight

[Rogue Chemist]

Making a device that launches a shell that explodes and sends MOLTEN METAL everywhere sounds like a really bad idea.... Fun to watch from a safe distance I bet though..

 

I have never seen molten Cu come out of a CuO/Al thermite. Always vapour/fine airborne particles.