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Dragon Eggs (Dragon Flowers)


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#21 Peret

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 01:33 AM

When I made some of these this year, the stars burned out before the dragons eggs went off, so no dandelion cloud. It was still an interesting effect that got some oohs and aahs, with a star burst followed by a surprise after effect of snaps, but not what I was hoping for. There must be a trick to making the smolder comp burn slowly and hot enough to set off the eggs, then burn in atmospheric air after the burst.

#22 Pyrophury

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Posted 09 September 2011 - 03:58 AM

As far as why those crackling flowers didn't work, you've got me. One thing I noticed is that your dragon eggs didn't seem to go off in one loud snap. That seems to be a prerequisite for the effect. I'm not sure how the chinese do it now, but the stars used to have to be going pretty slow to function properly. Now they slam them out of every insert and shell they make and they still function. It's difficult to really help as I've only played with this stuff very little. At the time I didn't have any phenolic resin, and I was using colophony resin and the stars were fired on the ground. I thought I got some semblance of the effect, but honestly I don't entirely remember. I didn't have the single snap DE working at the time, so that may have played a role in producing some of the cloud effect.


These are the same primed exploding cores I used before they were coated in the spark prime: http://www.pyrobin.c...dragon eggs.wmv, they explode with one loud snap, but you're right after they were coated they crackle...

#23 wbrown2wmb

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Posted 21 January 2014 - 04:22 PM

I found this on pyrotubes forum:

 

**antimony trioxide is poisonous so make note and take care.**

antimony trioxide- 37.5%

CuO black- 37.5%

mag aluminum- experiment with mesh sizes. I prefer 100 mesh for this recipe.25%

Bind with nitrocellulose lacquer or use smokeless gunpowder dissolved fully in acetone. If you nitrate your own cotton or are using smokeless powder be sure to make your lacquer nice and thick...about like molasses.

They give a sizzling sound before they go BANG!

Very nice they are!

 

 

For a louder bang use this formula↓

antimony trioxide→30%

CuO black→40%

mag aluminum -325→30%

Follow above instructions

 

antimony trioxide→20%

CuO black→ 40%

Mag aluminum -325→40%

Play around with these proportions.

I got a REALLY loud BOOM with this recipe.



#24 Niladmirari

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:28 AM

I experimented with additives. 

 

Composition:

 

Bi2O3 - 75%

MgAl (200-250 mesh) - 15%

CuO - 10%

nitrocellulose - 8% (over 100%)

 

Size of the star 5 mm.

 

Additives are added in an amount of 5%. 

 

Fe (0,3 mm):

 

 

Al (60-80 mesh):

 

 

Ti (50 mesh):

 


Edited by Niladmirari, 01 March 2014 - 04:32 AM.

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#25 Niladmirari

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:32 AM

Al (spherical 10 µm):

 

 

Sb2S3 (black):

 

 

Best results are obtained by titanium :)

 

P.S. Better to add 3% to the crackling was louder.


Edited by Niladmirari, 01 March 2014 - 04:34 AM.

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard". John F. Kennedy

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#26 Niladmirari

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Posted 01 March 2014 - 04:56 AM

Composition:

Pb3O4 - 81,8%

MgAl (200-250 mesh) - 9,1%

CuO - 9,1%

nitrocellulose - 8% (over 100%)

Size of the star 5 mm.

 


Edited by Niladmirari, 01 March 2014 - 04:56 AM.

"We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard". John F. Kennedy

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#27 Ubehage

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 07:07 PM

How can you prime DE, without using Potassium Dichromate, or is that even possible?

Dichromate is not availalable for me.


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#28 asdercks

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Posted 26 August 2014 - 09:52 PM

How can you prime DE, without using Potassium Dichromate, or is that even possible?

Dichromate is not availalable for me.

try black powder with silicon powder it works for me


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#29 spitfire

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 01:35 PM

Very interesting topic. We need to figure out ways to make dense solid cores -even in size as much as possible- and not go through a lot of fuss doing so. The DE i'm making now is just granulated, and yes, uneven in size and porous. It needs improvement. They work great though for my needs so far, but it ain't the real ''flowering effect'' we tend to see in commercial Chinese fireworks. We got work to do!


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#30 schroedinger

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Posted 03 September 2014 - 03:43 PM

To get rid of the porous structure you could always roll 'em or get a star plate like 3mm and press then or also cut 'em.

#31 Mumbles

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 09:44 AM

Very interesting topic. We need to figure out ways to make dense solid cores -even in size as much as possible- and not go through a lot of fuss doing so. The DE i'm making now is just granulated, and yes, uneven in size and porous. It needs improvement. They work great though for my needs so far, but it ain't the real ''flowering effect'' we tend to see in commercial Chinese fireworks. We got work to do!

 

 

The "flowering" effect is not a simple dragon egg.  A slaggy delay composition is rolled over the top.  This is what makes the sparks and flower type of effect.  The dragon egg simply acts as the burst in a way.


Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

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#32 spitfire

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Posted 04 September 2014 - 01:43 PM

Got that some posts ago Mumbles, the delay won't be the problem for most of us. Even if we have to start from ground zero we have a lot of ways: Phlegmatized glitter with added Ti or FeTi, the usual delay with additives, Shimizu's dark delay or transition comp for color changing stars... tweak and test, try tweak and test again. That's what i ment. Getting the core eggs right is a different story though. That's all about hardware. Easy in theory, but hard in practice. In theory on a forum we are all masters, but in practice... doubt it. 


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#33 spitfire

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Posted 14 September 2014 - 03:29 PM

I've been pondering... the delay we use for DE can also be used for plain color micro stars and use them in matrix comets or fountains. My goal is fountains, but my first try turned up pretty bad. There seems to be a big difference between corning NC based compositions or Dextrin based compositions. Again, i get stuck at the point of making micro stars even in size... sigh. 

I used a simple Mg/Al based red composition and corned it like i did with the dragon eggs. The result was as i feared, 80% too small. I proceeded (on the way anyway) and coated it with this delay composition:

 

BP...................75

parlon.............12,5

FeOx...............8

Red Gum........5

Dextrin............4

 

There was some good result though, too bad it only was for 10% of the total batch.... a waste of perchlorate i guess. I have to think this over again. My hardware isn't sufficient or i am missing some clue. I guess for the latter.


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#34 FlaMtnBkr

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 09:35 PM

I'm not totally sure what problem you are having? Making microstars? Have you tried cutting them? If you are granulating and getting a size you don't want, have you tried changing the screen size?

Dragon eggs don't really get a delay from what you put on them. The prime is fairly fast so it gets the entire surface lit at once. The DE work by having a delay phase and then a flash/explosion phase, similar to a strobe except it destroys itself.

Also, if you get a size you don't want it shouldn't be a waste. You just add more solvent, acetone for DE, let it get soft again and reprocess. There should be essentially no lost material. I usually add the stuff that is the wrong size to the next batch and process both new and old. But if you mess up, just add acetone and work the whole batch over until you are happy.

What other problems are you having?

#35 spitfire

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 01:26 PM

Thanks for your answer FlaMtnBkr, i'll try to answer as best as i can. Yes, i have tried cutting them and it works great if you only need small amounts and have lots of spare time doing so. I am looking for a more efficient way. I tried 3 different screens, and only one came close. I should try to find other screens to test, but that doesn't happen over night. 

 

Last few weeks i tried Bismuth based DE for the first time, and to my surprise they don't have any delay from themselves at all. Take a small grain and put a torch to it... BANG instantly. No delay at all. The bang is great though!

 

I do not waste any of it, anything that is too small is simply used again in the next batch. 

 

I have some (200g) testbatch primed ready and made some items with it to test the delay, but i didn't have time to do so yet. 


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#36 FlaMtnBkr

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Posted 23 September 2014 - 07:58 AM

Yes cutting them small is a pain but does produce nice eggs.

I also make bismuth eggs and have tried the trioxide and subcarbonate. I haven't had an immediate ignition but I suppose you could get pretty close to immediate with the right mesh MgAl. Too fine and each piece will make many small pops that aren't real loud. Too coarse and the delay is long and can get to where they glow for a few seconds and never pop.

What formula are you using? Perhaps if you are using one with an oxidizer that could also speed things up? I've seen a few formulas that do but haven't tried them.

It sounds like you are doing everything right though. It will probably just take time and experimenting to figure out what works well for you. I know Lloyd S. has mentioned granulating and then placing on the screen again while damp and use a hand to roll the eggs around and press through the screen to size them. I'm sure there is some technique but I haven't tried it to see how difficult it is. I know some people have also been successful rolling them. I think a lot of the Chinese eggs are rolled.

#37 enanthate

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Posted 27 September 2014 - 04:59 PM

Very interesting thread.

 

Yes, I also believe the chinese DE are rolled (many of them anyway). Got a couple of hundreds here from commercial fireworks, they're about 1,5mm size and perfectly round. Produces one single, great bang!

 

Spitfire, do you mind sharing your bismuth-comp? I only have bismuth, and my earlier issues have been that they pop and produce many small crackles. Not a very interesting effect, looks extremely unprofessional in the air. Please share yours if you don't mind, sounds like you're on to something!

Also, what mesh is the MgAl/etc you used?

 

For what it's worth, here's the comps I've been using:

 

 

Bismuth trioxide Dragon eggs

Bismuth trioxide 75

Magnalium (-200 mesh) 15

opper (II) oxide (black) 10

Aluminium (atomized, -200 mesh) +5

Nitrocellulose lacquer 10%

 

Dragon eggs Prime

Potassium perchlorate 70

Magnalium (granular, -200 mesh) 20

Red gum 10

 

Source: http://web.archive.o...ry:Compositions

Great website.


Edited by enanthate, 27 September 2014 - 05:02 PM.


#38 schroedinger

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Posted 28 September 2014 - 03:40 AM

Enanthate try to use -80 mesh

#39 FlaMtnBkr

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 07:04 AM

I like this formula:

37.5 bismuth trioxide
37.5 black copper oxide
25 MgAl (200 mesh)

Bound with lots of NC lacquer. Add enough to make a nice batter, then add about 50% more and let it dry to the point you want it. FYI, I didn't like the above formula. It didn't work as well and used twice as much of the expensive bismuth.


If a single egg is rapidly popping multiple times, your MgAl is too fine. You can use a coarser material or try replacing part of the MgAl with more coarse. It is common to have to tune the eggs for your chemicals. If many rapid pops, it's too fine, and if it smolders without popping it's too coarse. This is assuming the other chemicals are sufficiently fine. I've had bismuth that was coarse and it caused problems.

#40 enanthate

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Posted 29 September 2014 - 11:17 AM

The problem is that I only have #250, and then #10-100. No in-between there, but will give your formula a shot! Thanks.

 

Now that you mention it I can't actually remember grinding my bismuth, maybe that was a part of the problem. Will look into it soon, as I'm getting more chems the coming days.

Will get back to it ASAP.






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