Bunch of noob questions (Bp cia)

[Alchemyst]

Hello all,

 

 

Have some questions about Bp manufacturing with Cia method.

 

 

It seems to be very hard to find Iso alchool at 90% or more in my country. Will the 70% do the job ?

 

 

Most of the "how to cia movie" i've watched didn't show how to deal with binder. Do i need to put dextrin with this method ? When ? During the fuel milling or just before adding it to the Kno3/h2o hot mixture ? Dextrin will not stay in the water when i gonna press it through the cloth ?

 

 

Is there any safty issue to put very cold alchool in a very hot pan ? I mean no chance of spontaneous ignition without open flame ?

 

 

 

Thank you

 

 

Al.

[Arthur]

The CIA method is probably the most expensive and wasteful method of making BP, If you have a mill for ingredients then read lots of threads on the forum and learn a lot before using your mill to make some meal then granulate to pulverone with red gum or dextrin. Read the Ball mill thread and the huge BP thread before you go much further.

[Alchemyst]

Hello Arthur,

 

I don't have a ball mill that's why i gather info on Cia.

 

 

 

Al.

[Gunzway]

Alchemyst,

 

Arthur is basically saying a ball mill is a very efficient tool and something you should put some thought into getting and using for black powder manufacture. I also agree and I'm sure many other members also agree. The CIA method does work, but it's not a great method. You need have your ingredients fine anyway for the CIA method to be any decent. Trust me, I've dealt with trying to make things without one and it's a lot more laborious and makes things a big pain in the ass. One could use a rock tumbler to serve the function of a ball mill or construct his own. Making a ball mill can be very cheap if you are resourceful and you can make it very efficient.

 

I find it quite unbelievable that isopropyl alcohol cannot be obtained in concentrations above 90% in your country. I generally use methylated spirits for my source of alcohol as it's a bit more easy to find and a lot cheaper. Perhaps you would be successful finding this and I believe it will serve the purpose.

[Arthur]

Don't bother with youtube as a training video source, some of their vids will get you into more problems than they solve.

 

Read the whole of this forum, learn from people who are capable of doing the job. Buy yourself a small rock tumbler - I think we ALL started with one, with a tumbler you can make small batches say 100g or so, small batches are a good idea til you are really good enough to make kilos at a time safely.

 

Remember that the CIA process requires that you start with finely milled charcoal and sulphur, it's just an expensive method of rapidly precipitating the nitrate into fine crystals. All the alcohol that you use is lost as vapour, smelly and noticeable and flammable. The powder will still be damp and need properly drying. It's really not worth the bother.

[Cookieman]

Hello all,

 

 

Have some questions about Bp manufacturing with Cia method.

 

 

It seems to be very hard to find Iso alchool at 90% or more in my country. Will the 70% do the job ?

 

 

Most of the "how to cia movie" i've watched didn't show how to deal with binder. Do i need to put dextrin with this method ? When ? During the fuel milling or just before adding it to the Kno3/h2o hot mixture ? Dextrin will not stay in the water when i gonna press it through the cloth ?

 

 

Is there any safty issue to put very cold alchool in a very hot pan ? I mean no chance of spontaneous ignition without open flame ?

 

 

 

Thank you

 

 

Al.

 

 

Do yourself a favour and invest in a ball mill. A ball mill to a pyro is like a chefs knife to a chef. I have used the CIA method and next to working with Lampblack it is the messiest way of making BP. It's really not worth the effort as you can obtain the same results using red gum and denatured alcohol or dextrin/water as a binder.With this method I lift 6" shells to 700ft with no problems. I have a 3lb tumbler now and will upgrade to a 15lb one.

[Alchemyst]

Well guys i know you are right. I planing on buying one of these little Lorton rock tumbler. But won't plan on grinding all together at once. I'll probably stick to double double and screening.

I want make the cia until i get it. I have try mortar and pestle but with awful results. Spend an hour of hard hand grinding small batch at once but seems to be not very useful.

 

For the alcohol, all the medical supplie online, the pharmacy and other store like that provide only 70% one. I can give a try to buy it from uk but the custom may don't like it a lot. I will look at what Gunzway have propose methylated spirits.

 

 

Many thanks for your precious help

 

 

 

 

Al.

 

[Arthur]

Read all the ball milling topics on the forum, and all the Black Powder topics on here too. Then save up for a small ball mill and some media. Then you can start to make decent BP.

 

BP is SO important because all your fireworks depend on having good BP. BP is in fountains, rockets, wheels, shell lift, shell break, quick match, black match -practically everything except flash and sparklers.

 

The knowledge that you gain from LOTS of reading before you experiment will save you lots of money and help you keep all your body parts attached and functioning. Get yourself a pair of ear defenders to preserve your hearing if you plan to fire shells or flash salutes.

[dagabu]

For the alcohol, all the medical supplie online, the pharmacy and other store like that provide only 70% one. I can give a try to buy it from uk but the custom may don't like it a lot. I will look at what Gunzway have propose methylated spirits.

 

Denatured alcohol will work as well and it is 100% with denaturents (at least the stuff I buy is). I have made CIA BP several times and it is a complete waste of time, I would rather shoot a lamp black confetti canon in my moms living room then do another batch of CIA BP.

Edited July 13, 2010 by dagabu

[Mumbles]

The binder is always something I wondered about. It always seemed to be as if no binder, or at least not one that was activated, was used. Then again, if you use dextrin, it's possible it would still be a little bit activated. I'd bet you could experiment a bit, and find an appropriate amount of redgum to use too.

 

As far as the hot pot, cold alcohol situation, without any flame or spark sources it should be alright. Glass containers for several reasons are not recommended.

[dagabu]

The binder is always something I wondered about. It always seemed to be as if no binder, or at least not one that was activated, was used. Then again, if you use dextrin, it's possible it would still be a little bit activated. I'd bet you could experiment a bit, and find an appropriate amount of redgum to use too.

 

As far as the hot pot, cold alcohol situation, without any flame or spark sources it should be alright. Glass containers for several reasons are not recommended.

 

Sorry, I was using red gum, no dex.

[Alchemyst]

BP is SO important because all your fireworks depend on having good BP. BP is in fountains, rockets, wheels, shell lift, shell break, quick match, black match -practically everything except flash and sparklers.

 

The knowledge that you gain from LOTS of reading before you experiment will save you lots of money and help you keep all your body parts attached and functioning. Get yourself a pair of ear defenders to preserve your hearing if you plan to fire shells or flash salutes.

 

 

I don't plan on doing other stuff than Bp for now. Flash powder, colored stars, salute and other thing like that make me little nervous to deal with the chemical and the comps are too sensitive for my noobish skill. I plan on first making decent Bp and then try making nice 3" tigertail Stars Shells if i can make that i will be very happy for the beginning.

 

Your right Bp is all. I have to work fiste on that.

 

 

 

Denatured alcohol will work as well and it is 100% with denaturents (at least the stuff I buy is). I have made CIA BP several times and it is a complete waste of time, I would rather shoot a lamp black confetti canon in my moms living room then do another batch of CIA BP

 

 

Yeah seems to not be the easiest way but till i get a ball mill it will probably outperform my ridiculous mortar and pestle one.

 

 

 

The binder is always something I wondered about. It always seemed to be as if no binder, or at least not one that was activated, was used. Then again, if you use dextrin, it's possible it would still be a little bit activated. I'd bet you could experiment a bit, and find an appropriate amount of redgum to use too.

 

 

Thank you for the advice. Red gum is used as the dextrin ? or have to be dissolved in alcohol before ?

 

 

 

AL.

[dagabu]

Nope, just add it to the BP and pour the alcohol in. The red gum is a mess to use but its one less step to make BP.

[Alchemyst]

Ok thanks a lot for your help.

 

 

 

Al

[Skycastlefish]

I don't plan on doing other stuff than Bp for now. Flash powder, colored stars, salute and other thing like that make me little nervous to deal with the chemical and the comps are too sensitive for my noobish skill. I plan on first making decent Bp and then try making nice 3" tigertail Stars Shells if i can make that i will be very happy for the beginning.

 

I like your concern for safety. Keep it up. We're better off being cautious and asking too many questions than wondering why nobody told us!

In the meantime, while your trying to figure out the ball mill and cia situation, you can still make some killer fountains. As long as your KNO3 isn't much larger than sugar granules you don't even have to screen it, let alone mill it - just use a wooden dowel to and mix it up good. I prefer purchasing airfloat charcoal, otherwise, you'll want ball mill. Also, you can make some nice charcoal streamers (probably tiger tails as well) using a coffee grinder to mill your Potassium Nitrate and Sulfur (separately, of course.) If you use the same coffee grinder to mill both chemicals, clean it out between uses with both a medium/small paintbrush and "dust remover spray" aka compressed air. I use two grinders, one for KNO3, one for S. You can really do a lot with just a coffee grinder. If you make a 75/15/10 green batch and wet/granulate it you'll get plenty of lift, enough for a 1-2in star mine, easy. I haven't tried it for lifting shells yet. Unfortunately for us, we're going to have to get a ball mill or be satisfied with buying commercial BP in order to lift 3-6in shells

good luck.

 

 

[KruseMissile]

Do you have a scale? You will definately need a scale to do nearly anything in this hobby efficiently. If you dont have one you can pick one up at a Walmart type store. People use them to weigh food for diets.

 

Where do you live? I have a tumbler, but it has no barrel. I could sell it to you for cheap if you need it or if you need a scale, I have an extra one.

Brian

[Alchemyst]

I like your concern for safety. Keep it up. We're better off being cautious and asking too many questions than wondering why nobody told us!

In the meantime, while your trying to figure out the ball mill and cia situation, you can still make some killer fountains. As long as your KNO3 isn't much larger than sugar granules you don't even have to screen it, let alone mill it - just use a wooden dowel to and mix it up good. I prefer purchasing airfloat charcoal, otherwise, you'll want ball mill. Also, you can make some nice charcoal streamers (probably tiger tails as well) using a coffee grinder to mill your Potassium Nitrate and Sulfur (separately, of course.) If you use the same coffee grinder to mill both chemicals, clean it out between uses with both a medium/small paintbrush and "dust remover spray" aka compressed air. I use two grinders, one for KNO3, one for S. You can really do a lot with just a coffee grinder. If you make a 75/15/10 green batch and wet/granulate it you'll get plenty of lift, enough for a 1-2in star mine, easy. I haven't tried it for lifting shells yet. Unfortunately for us, we're going to have to get a ball mill or be satisfied with buying commercial BP in order to lift 3-6in shells

good luck.

 

 

 

Hello

 

Yeah i prefer been too shy than losing an arm or hurting somebody. For now i use combined coffee grinder and mortar and pestle screening then granulate it. I will try it tonight hope it will burn faster than my paste simple green mix. I will buy a rock tumbler soon for making decent Bp.

 

Thank you for your advice.

 

 

 

 

Do you have a scale? You will definately need a scale to do nearly anything in this hobby efficiently. If you dont have one you can pick one up at a Walmart type store. People use them to weigh food for diets.

 

Where do you live? I have a tumbler, but it has no barrel. I could sell it to you for cheap if you need it or if you need a scale, I have an extra one.

Brian

 

 

Hi,

 

I have a digitale 0.1gr precision scale. Unfortunately i live in Europe it will be hard for an oversea shipping but anyway i found an Lorton rock tumbler retailer i will buy one asap.

 

Thank you for you help.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Tonight i will do some test. I have made some little cylinder tiger tail shells. Hope my Bp will be able to lift and do the break. I will double the security distances and be hidding behind a wall for more safety. As i don't know how it will react. I'll try to record it and show you if i'm still alive after the launch.

 

 

 

 

 

Al.

[LittleOsama]

From my own experience i can only assume that your lift didn't work.

Everyone who first tries to make BP will use coffee grinder, mortar/pestle, will mix in CIA method etc and result is always slow burning powder that is not suitable for lift/break. Those are poor methods for making BP and when you combine them with little or no experience then it simply can't work. I assume your BP's burn rate is smth like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dgq7IbM568 (one of my own tests when i started to make BP). Only way this thing is gonna lift smth is when you make shell so tight that you gonna have to ram it into a mortar.

After getting ball mill and some practice you can use your old slow powder (one you tried to make for lift) for effects (stars, comets, fountains etc).

When you make a 'test' patch of BP write down or simply remember how and what you did and after powder is ready make a burn test and film it (1m linear burn test is most accurate and looks like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGFFfQsGSOA ). Afterwards watch it frame by frame and count how many frames powder burned and compare it to next/previous patches.

[Bearark]

Removing the excess water from Isopropanol is really easy to do actually, just get some epsom salts, heat in the oven for two hours at around 100 C (If Memory serves) and drop it in a wide mouth canning jar alongside the Iso. Filter out the epsom salts and you have almost 100% Isopropanol

[Alchemyst]

From my own experience i can only assume that your lift didn't work.

Everyone who first tries to make BP will use coffee grinder, mortar/pestle, will mix in CIA method etc and result is always slow burning powder that is not suitable for lift/break. Those are poor methods for making BP and when you combine them with little or no experience then it simply can't work. I assume your BP's burn rate is smth like this: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0dgq7IbM568 (one of my own tests when i started to make BP). Only way this thing is gonna lift smth is when you make shell so tight that you gonna have to ram it into a mortar.

After getting ball mill and some practice you can use your old slow powder (one you tried to make for lift) for effects (stars, comets, fountains etc).

When you make a 'test' patch of BP write down or simply remember how and what you did and after powder is ready make a burn test and film it (1m linear burn test is most accurate and looks like this: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=JGFFfQsGSOA ). Afterwards watch it frame by frame and count how many frames powder burned and compare it to next/previous patches.

 

 

 

Yes it burn like this maybe even worst. I can't wait to have my tumbler for making real Bp. For safety, i will not try until i'll get it. I don't feel ram the shell in the mortar better to wait a bit and don't make hazardous things for being to hasty.

 

Thank you for the advice on the burn test. I will do it when I'll get my mill. Btw nice burn on your last movie.

 

 

Al.

[Dr Boom]

Alchemyst, if you add iso- alcohol to a hot pan it won't flame up- but you are asking for trouble when you do it.

 

The link below contains some auto-ignition temperatures where you don't have to have a spark or open flame to get a fire:

 

Ignition Temps

 

I doubt you would have the slurry up to 750 degrees F for the alcohol to flash-fire anyway...

[jimbo]

after about 10yrs of trying to make usable b.p I can say this, get a ball mill and decent charcoal and thats it,as soon as I bought a ball mill I had good b.p,you can't go wrong from there,every other way is a waste of time and energy if you want to launch and break shells you need a ball mill,rocketry and fountains and stuff like that you could get away without one but if you need lift quality powder then you need a ball mill simple as that.

[apcqazwsx]

I thought heavy shells needed less powerful black powder. Don't you want more of a push than a kick?

[Dr Boom]

Normally you use a larger grain size with larger shells. The same composition isn't the problem, the surface burn rate of the BP is. That's why grain size is critical.

 

FFFG powder (30 - 50 mesh) for shells 1 1/2" and below

 

FFG (20 - 30 mesh) for shells around 3"

 

FG (10 - 20 mesh) for shells 4 to 6"

 

"Cannon" grade (5 - 10 mesh) for heavy shells 6" +

 

I've seen/used BP that was grained to the size of cracked corn for some big, heavy shells 12" +

 

So yes, you want to 'propel' the shell, not blast it into orbit. You can blow it blind, fracture the shell in the gun causing a flower pot, or shoot it too high where the effect is deminished...

[LittleOsama]

after about 10yrs of trying to make usable b.p I can say this, get a ball mill and decent charcoal and thats it,as soon as I bought a ball mill I had good b.p,you can't go wrong from there,every other way is a waste of time and energy if you want to launch and break shells you need a ball mill,rocketry and fountains and stuff like that you could get away without one but if you need lift quality powder then you need a ball mill simple as that.

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