DragonsKing Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Hello everyone, I am a new member to this site and also new to making fireworks. I have done about a week of research already and i have been talking, on and off, to Nighthawkinlight. He is the one that got me interested in the whole adventure unaware. I am just working on making black powder, rockets and fountains right now, and i have had some success. I have some formulas and some added information to my knowledge but i am having a lot of trouble. I have made my charcoal out of my own crucible and the wood that i used was Spruce.. was this a terrible idea? Anyways, my attempts at making BP with just KNO3 and sugar have failed. The BP burns WAY too slow.. my rockets wont even leave the ground..Any suggestions? Well, i didnt know where else to post this information and i am trying to find someone who can be there on a semi regular basis to help guide me in the right direction and maybe lend me some feedback. I have no one around and i have tried to join a Pyro guild to no avail. There isnt one here in Alabama and Florida has denied my request. I am 23, almost 24 and i am willing to try anything.. Thank you all for reading this and sorry for it being so long. I hope to hear from someone soon cause i need help.. Sorry for the double post, i posted once also in "new member checking in" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrochris732 Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 welcome my friend.. im a newb too and this site is great for obtaining information on firework construction. I think most people here will tell you to make your own black powder by purchasing a ball mill which seems to be the most popular way. From my own experience, you can buy a "black powder kit" from pyrocreations to make exactly 1 pound. they send you the ingredients fine powdered so they claim nothing needs to be milled. They include instructions on how to do it with alcohol and water and how it gets screened and stuff. It probably makes more sense to buy black powder ingredients from one of the pyro sites as well as a cheap rock tumbler or ball mill. This way you can make pounds of the stuff in one shot and have it be really good quality. I think that would be best if you want to really get deep into the hobby. I actually use commercial ffg and fg powder for the tiny shells that I make. I dont do rockets so i cant speak for those. I think soon I will be purchasing a ball mill.. you can get a nice 3 or 6 pound one from pyrocreations and they are pretty inexpensive. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted April 24, 2010 Share Posted April 24, 2010 Dragon, I have never used charcoal with KNO3 and Sugar for rockets, KNO3 and Sugar are perfectly good by themselves for rockets. You will need a little corn syrup too if you want it to flow smoothly. BTW- The only true black powder is milled, pressed and corned. CIA is not black powder. There are plenty of those that have made a respectable pulverone but its not BP. The closest you can get to good hard grain BP is to ball mill it, add 1% red gum and rice it. Again, it is pulverone, not BP though it can be made to burn faster then BP when care is taken. Are you sure you got rejected? The Florida is a good group, unless you failed the background check, I would not think they would deny you. You may want to email one of the board members directly. If you are going to do rockets, be prepared to spend some cash, good ingredients are a must. Shoot me an email and we will get to the bottom of your rocket issues. coldfire11@msn.com D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonsKing Posted April 25, 2010 Author Share Posted April 25, 2010 I never noticed that i didnt need charcoal.. Well i have emailed Florida and they will not respond to me at all, I have explained my situation to them and still nothing. I like to make my own supplies and i have made my own charcoal and my own crucible. I also have been making my own rocket tubes and they seem to work great. All thanks to Nighthawkinlight. I am looking forward to buying more supplies in the near future and I was wondering if anyone could help me with a basic list of items that i would need to start making shells, stars, fountains and rockets. Preferably at,under or around $100.00 USD here is a list of what i have so far.Mortar and pestle, fine mesh screen (for powder) and a large mesh for making stars, hot glue gun, Crucible, KNO3, Charcoal and Bentonite Clay. Here is a list of what i think i still need.Sulfur, 2" shell's, rubber mallet, rice hulls, digital scale, Visco, Kraft paper (although i'm unsure of the #), tissue paper, some larger dowel's and some mortar tubes. Thank you all for your help! I also have 2 videos on my facebook as well! darkknight666@gmail.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrochris732 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 since youre doing rockets why not add sodium benzoate and potassium perchlorate to that list. You can use it for a burst charge in shells and rocket whistles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonsKing Posted April 25, 2010 Author Share Posted April 25, 2010 since youre doing rockets why not add sodium benzoate and potassium perchlorate to that list. You can use it for a burst charge in shells and rocket whistles This may be a dumb question, but is that what makes the rocket "POP" after it reaches its peak? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrochris732 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 i think you are referring to the report, do you mean the loud bang? that would be flash powder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonsKing Posted April 25, 2010 Author Share Posted April 25, 2010 i think you are referring to the report, do you mean the loud bang? that would be flash powder. yes, that was what i was referring to, lol.. god im a newb! so what are the other 2 chemicals used for? as i have mentioned, i am trying to start basic, and i am not really sure what chemicals do what, its hard to find the right sources to find this information, and thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I'd always suggest that you start very slowly, research for a year, buy some reputed text books -real ones! Lancaster, shimizu, may help. Getting a good reliable black powder could be a next objective, as BP lifts rockets and shells, breaks shells, and is in lots of other things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunzway Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics is a good book for a beginner. It's not as heavily detailed as Shimizu's or Lancasters etc. but it gets to the safety side of things and the basic idea on how to build a lot of the devices. I recommend it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seymour Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 yes, that was what i was referring to, lol.. god im a newb! so what are the other 2 chemicals used for? as i have mentioned, i am trying to start basic, and i am not really sure what chemicals do what, its hard to find the right sources to find this information, and thank you. If you are referring to the two chemicals that pyrochris mentioned, Sodium benzoate and Potassium perchlorate, they are two chemicals that are needed for a whistling composition, which can be used for whistling rockets, as well as stationary whistles, and if used differently (or if your whistle does not do so well) it can be a powerful explosive. Potassium perchlorate is not just useful for it's role as an oxidiser in whistle formulas, but it is also a useful component in many colours and other effects. However, if you want to start with colours, you will need a lot more than Potassium perchlorate, and to make a basic set of colours you will need about ten more chemicals. It sounds like you are keen, and so I expect that in the not too distant future you will order these, but for now there is no reason to try to do everything. With the three black powder ingredents you can make black powder, as well as charcoal fountains and rocket compositions. If you add a binder, Dextrin being the most common since you can make it at home from cornstarch/cornflour just by putting it in the oven at the right temperature, you can bind these chemicals in to stars, and you can make lovely charcoal streamers! If you do want to expand your chemicals slightly, the addition of atomised Aluminium and Sodium bicarbonate (Baking soda) will let you make silver effects and glitters. The D1 glitter formula is not the only formula you will be able to make, but it is certainly very popular. As Pyrochris said, a ball mill is going to be essential if you want to do well in this hobby. Read and read. This forum has a lot of info, as do other websites, but if you can, invest in one of these books that people are reccomending. It really is an investment. The more you read, the more sources you find, and before you know it you have spent the better part of a decade reading and you are still not done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwitt Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 Just getting into proper pyrotechnics myself, I've done nearly a year of reading, 3-4 months of asking questions here, and just started in earnest a month ago. (Could have began experiments way before, but the time just recently presented itself) A ball mill is a must- if you're handy, you can make one with a scavenged motor, some bearings, etc. If you must buy one, a small hobby tumbler would be fine for small experiments, but a "serious" mill is required for any sort of large scale work. In terms of BP production, we're talking 200g in 12 hours for the inexpensive little tumbler, nearly 1kg in 6 hours in a big nice tumbler, or even faster in a home built ball mill. I just acquired a nice tumbler- yellow metal-framed one built by a guy in the midwest and sold on ebay. I started out planning on buying a harbor freight rock tumbler, a "3 pound" model, and quickly did some math and figured it wouldn't be practical for my needs. You'll also need milling media for the tumbler. Lead, brass, etc. Pros and cons to each type. Be prepared to slowly acquire materials and do experiments that are possible with what you have. There's a decent amount of stuff that can be learned/experienced with small amounts of pyrotechnic mixtures. The recommendations for books are good too- I know that as I've researched this stuff, I learn a ton, but all too often see citations from some of the well known books. They must be on the wish list too if you want to get a real handle on pyro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 This is just a repeat of several more senior members and those that wish to keep this hobby out of the news. [RANT] NOOBS: Forget about flash until you have perfected black powder, making some star shells and or rockets. There is no reason to do whistle either for the time being, as flash and whistle are the two most sensitive comps that we would normally use. there are only about 10,000 other things you can do before you would need either one. B00merz and K3wls, take a breath, do something productive. [RANT/] Dragon, Reports can be made from any one of several pyrotechnical comps, start with black powder and stay the hell away from flash (thanks pyrochris!) until you have a full understanding of the kind of jail time and medical attention you will need when you spark it off accidentally. Lets go back to rockets. Simple BP rockets can be made with whole chemicals (ground separately but not milled) and can gain good heights if done well. Rockets are one of the oldest pyrotechnics and are a great way to learn about chemicals and when abused, dont bite back as hard as others such as whistle. I recommend that you download Turbo Pyro by Skylighter, Written by a friend of mine, Ned Gorski. If Mumbles or Sidewinder have worked it out, you can get it here for free. You will get the very best elementary pyro education you can find anywhere. Rule #1: DO NOT mix, store or use energetic materials in a house, apartment or other place where people live. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwitt Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) On that note, this essay is a good safety primer: http://www.skylighte...ymanualofca.htm (I'm assuming it's ok to link to a commercial site for such a purpose) Edited April 25, 2010 by jwitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrochris732 Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 dagabu, nobody was implying that they wanted to make ground salutes. He just wanted to know what makes the report sound. The original poster doesnt sound like he has those types of intentions, so i think your rant was unneccessary. That said, dont start working with flash powder. Its really dangerous and not worth taking off your hand or worse. Dont listen to idiots on youtube either about how to make it. youre likely to end up with horrible advice. If you do end up wanting to use it, just email someone here or search a topic on how its properly prepared. Ill admit that I was fascinated with flash powder and huge reports awhile back. But I did a lot of reading and took every safety precaution practical before i mixed it. Stars are really really fun to make. When you start getting a good chemical collection going you will have a blast (no pun) making them and then testing them in a small mortar. Hit me up if you want some really easy star formulas. Im new to it and its pretty gratifying to see your first glitter star light up the sky. People seem to be impressed by it too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonsKing Posted April 25, 2010 Author Share Posted April 25, 2010 (edited) hey everyone. thanks again for all the information that you have provided. As once mention, i am pretty keen, mentally sharp, and otherwise, pretty intelligent. I have done my research and i am ready to begin with, as i once said, SIMPLE things. I am not intending on working with anything other that your usual black powder mix, milled, refined and grained. I am collecting different size screens and doin some more research on the different mesh sizes of each screen and what the uses for different grain uses. I have a 4 mesh screen, which as i have read are for only 2FA powder used to lift large shells and for the occasional break charge in shells. I also have a VERY fine mesh svreen, i believe it to be either 30mesh or 50 mesh, im not sure, but its what i have been sifting my charcoal through, and as i assume, it makes it airfloat. Again, i dont want to start with anything that makes colors right now, or sparks, i just want to make what i can with some basic ingredients, Charcoal, KNO3, Sulfur, Dextrin These are the chemicals that i am looking to start with. At least to my knowledge there are a great many things that you can make from these ingredients. I am going to be making my black powder from these ingredients as well. I have downloaded the Turbo Pyro book from Skylighter and i also got the Advanced Fountains (I dont intend on using this for a WHILE). I hope this gives everyone an idea as to what projects and things that i want to start working on and i will list a few things that i already have in mind, they are as follows, Mortars and Shells, Rockets(simple), Fountains These are what i think are going to be a good place for me to start. I dont want to make any whistle mix, as i have read, its VERY dangerous. Flash powder i might think of making a feww weeks, maybe months down the road, but not yet.. Thanks again everyone. Edited April 25, 2010 by DragonsKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonsKing Posted April 25, 2010 Author Share Posted April 25, 2010 "If you do want to expand your chemicals slightly, the addition of atomised Aluminium and Sodium bicarbonate (Baking soda) will let you make silver effects and glitters. The D1 glitter formula is not the only formula you will be able to make, but it is certainly very popular."Quoted Seymour I would like to add these to my mix, as i think it would be a good beginners addition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightHawkInLight Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 dagabu, nobody was implying that they wanted to make ground salutes. He just wanted to know what makes the report sound. The original poster doesnt sound like he has those types of intentions, so i think your rant was unneccessary. A rant on flash is always necessary for a beginners good, whatever their intentions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunzway Posted April 25, 2010 Share Posted April 25, 2010 I dont want to make any whistle mix, as i have read, its VERY dangerous. Flash powder i might think of making a feww weeks, maybe months down the road, but not yet.. Thanks again everyone. Just for the heads up, arguably flash powder is more dangerous than whistle mix. When I began this hobby I didn't touch any of these compositions and it was around just under the two year milestone when I decided to prepare some. I used black powder reports for my rockets till then. It fulfills the purpose and tells you when a rocket has reached its apogee and definitely gives a decent sound. You don't want it that loud so everyone in the next suburb can hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwitt Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 You can make several types of charcoal streamer stars with the basic BP ingredients. I'm working on cut charcoal stars right now- well, "this year" as well as today. It's really pretty neat stuff. A star's burning properties and visual effects are basically controlled by the exact "stuff" it's made of and the fuel:oxidizer ratio. If the standard BP mix is the starting point, as you add more fuel to it, the comp's properties change from BP, to rocket fuel, to chrsyanthemum stars, to willow, and then tiger tail. If I had a star gun, I'd make small batches of each star to see how each performs. Also consider the "stuff" a composition is made of. Different kinds of charcoal provide somewhat different effects- they say pine makes nice sparks. Varying all these things can create brighter spark tails, bushier, longer-lasting, etc. Additional effects can come from addition of metal powders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 Gunzway, Sorry but I do not share your sentiments. Whistle has a brisiance almost equal to flash. This video was taken by a buddy some time ago to demonstrate the power of 500 gr of whistle unconfined. http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/extra/500gramwhistleselfconfinetest2.wmv D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 Gunzway, Sorry but I do not share your sentiments. Whistle has a brisiance almost equal to flash. This video was taken by a buddy some time ago to demonstrate the power of 500 gr of whistle unconfined. http://www.wichitabu...onfinetest2.wmv D either way what he is saying is if the dragon dosnt feel its time to be making whistle (Which i agree with) is that it isnt time to make flash either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonsKing Posted April 26, 2010 Author Share Posted April 26, 2010 That is excatly it, i dont want to be making either one of those compositions. I am going to start small and simple, eventually making my way into more exotic things. I will be starting to make some things in the next few weeks and i will be sure to make videos of them and upload them. Are there any suggestions as to what it is that i should start with making first? perhaps links to a project or just ideas that i can research. Thanks everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 either way what he is saying is if the dragon dosnt feel its time to be making whistle (Which i agree with) is that it isnt time to make flash either True that Ralph.... Eh, BTW, you are still picking your nose. Just saying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted April 26, 2010 Share Posted April 26, 2010 True that Ralph.... Eh, BTW, you are still picking your nose. Just saying The leprechaun that told me to burn things suggested it would be a good idea though Mrs hoover didn't agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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