Pliable black-/quickmatch

[Aquarius]

This NYE I fired nine Chineese ball shells in wolleys of threes, and made the timing with timefuse and the supplied quickmatch. Probably a well known thing to do.

What I found when I opened the quickmatch pipe was that the five strands of blackmatch was a lot more "gummy" and pliable than my homemade. Wich burn very well but tends to flake and loose powder when bent.

 

I remember reading a thread about adding something named CMC to the slurry, is this what make the strings more pliable and stand up to the abuse and bending better?

 

A quick search on the web show that CMC is a cellulosebased thickening agent used in watercolors by artists and painters. When I started out some time ago, I read on AlanY's site that he addes cellulose in the form of paper pulp to his blackmatch. Any ideas on how this done and how it might perform?

[dagabu]

This NYE I fired nine Chineese ball shells in wolleys of threes, and made the timing with timefuse and the supplied quickmatch. Probably a well known thing to do.

What I found when I opened the quickmatch pipe was that the five strands of blackmatch was a lot more "gummy" and pliable than my homemade. Wich burn very well but tends to flake and loose powder when bent.

 

I remember reading a thread about adding something named CMC to the slurry, is this what make the strings more pliable and stand up to the abuse and bending better?

 

A quick search on the web show that CMC is a cellulosebased thickening agent used in watercolors by artists and painters. When I started out some time ago, I read on AlanY's site that he addes cellulose in the form of paper pulp to his blackmatch. Any ideas on how this done and how it might perform?

 

Shoot me an email Aq, I will send you a few ounces on me. Spamento@gamail.com

 

CMC is only part of the reason it is so pliable without flaking. The other reason is the string itself. For some reason this last year, I became a string whore, and cant stop buying the stuff. I have given away more black match then I used in displays this past year due to experimenting with variations. I am NO expert, far from it but i can tell you this; open up the strands by chucking up a piece of 20 strand 100% cotton yarn in a drill and unwind it, spool it up and run it through a black match machine and you will have perfect cross match since it lays almost flat on the drying loom.

 

5 strand black match works best (IMHO) using the finest yarn I can find. I have a spool of 2/21 hemp/cotton yarn, it weighs 1 gram per 100 meters! It has a breaking strength of 5# but with five strands, kraft paper tube, it can hold 45# with no degradation.

 

Think of it this way, when you take a stick and bend it sparply, it cracks and splinters on the outside, the smaller the stick (green) the further you can bend it without it breaking. Black match is similar, the bigger the string, the more flaking you will get.

 

The Chinese use very thin string, they use CMC (or similar). You only need .5 - 1% CMC by weight to make it really sticky but more importantly, it suspends the BP particles in the solution where water and dextrin without CMC allows them to fall out leaving the first BM to be weak and the last to burn to vigorously.

 

D

 

P.S. Black match and cross match are not the same thing though I see them used that way all of the time.

Edited January 6, 2010 by dagabu

[Ventsi]

What about using Wheat Paste as the sole binder? It has more gumminess than dextrin when dry, but some serious holding strength.

 

Dave when you say 5 strand BM do you mean 5 strands of yarn impregnated and then joined, or just a 5 strand unwound string running trough the machine?

 

I though Black match was used for cross match, or thermolite. What is cross match then?

Edited January 6, 2010 by Ventsi

[dagabu]

What about using Wheat Paste as the sole binder? It has more gumminess than dextrin when dry, but some serious holding strength.

 

I don't use wheat paste due to the limited shelf life and the ash left from its burning.

 

Dave when you say 5 strand BM do you mean 5 strands of yarn impregnated and then joined, or just a 5 strand unwound string running trough the machine?

 

Yes, the blue (I forget the name) quick match has 5 individual strands of black match laid out flat in a 1/2" wide poly coated kraft wrapper. These are 5 individual strings of 2 ply cotton.

 

I though Black match was used for cross match, or thermolite. What is cross match then?

 

There are authors that say they are the same, others that say they are as different as day from night, I base my names on what I have found at Precocious Pyrotechnics being that Gary's cross match is pretty large (2-2.5 mm) across and his black match (inside his quick match) is made from smaller strands (.8- 1mm) of black match. I don't know of anyone that uses thermolite anymore, it is said to not work as well in lighting time fuse. It seems that the fire is to hot and melts the tar thus sealing the powder train from ignition.

 

D

[Bonny]

I don't use wheat paste due to the limited shelf life and the ash left from its burning.

 

 

 

Yes, the blue (I forget the name) quick match has 5 individual strands of black match laid out flat in a 1/2" wide poly coated kraft wrapper. These are 5 individual strings of 2 ply cotton.

 

 

 

D

 

I have QM in a red wrapper that is also 5 strand, it is flexible and works great. I had some other 5 strand QM in kraft wrapper only that carcked as you bent it. You could feel it breaking. It still works great as the gasses flying down the tube won't stop at a small break. As far as splicing chains and joining QM though, I by far prefer the single flat ribbon type QM, much easier to work with.

[Mumbles]

Pyroformex makes the blue stuff. I've worked with the brown paper stuff before. Presumably it comes from somewhere in china as it is all chopped up leaders that I have, but I've seen rolls too, so who knows. I like it too for cross match. I also use the individual strands for filling the fuse hole in crossettes.

 

I actually think of the thinner stuff as crossmatch, and the thicker stuff as black match. I just figure the thick stuff wont fit as well in time fuse. If it can fit inside, it can't be crossmatch.

[dagabu]

Pyroformex makes the blue stuff. I've worked with the brown paper stuff before. Presumably it comes from somewhere in china as it is all chopped up leaders that I have, but I've seen rolls too, so who knows. I like it too for cross match. I also use the individual strands for filling the fuse hole in crossettes.

 

I actually think of the thinner stuff as crossmatch, and the thicker stuff as black match. I just figure the thick stuff wont fit as well in time fuse. If it can fit inside, it can't be crossmatch.

 

I saw one old snort at PGI that was lobbing big shells all night long and he was stealing leaders and pulling Chinese black match out of them and using them to cross match his cylinders. I had asked someone else there if that was ok (I had never built a can) and was told that as long as the match burned, it was fine.

 

How true that was.

 

D

[Ventsi]

I'm sorry, I know this is an idiotic question, but HOW THE HELL do you guys separate your cotton twine? I bought some cheap 12 strand cotton twine, and wanted to take it apart and use 2 individual strands of the 1mm strings to make BM for QM. I started with relatively short sections just as a test[10ft]. I unwound the string perfectly, but when I started taking the strands apart they tangled like no tomorrow. Even thought he string was unwound, the strands passed and crossed and twisted around each other inside the string chaotically. Thus making it impossible for me to separate more than a few feet of string.

 

Is there any magic trick to making this work? I guess I could coat the whole string but I'd much rather not have anything that thick...

[dagabu]

I'm sorry, I know this is an idiotic question, but HOW THE HELL do you guys separate your cotton twine? I bought some cheap 12 strand cotton twine, and wanted to take it apart and use 2 individual strands of the 1mm strings to make BM for QM. I started with relatively short sections just as a test[10ft]. I unwound the string perfectly, but when I started taking the strands apart they tangled like no tomorrow. Even thought he string was unwound, the strands passed and crossed and twisted around each other inside the string chaotically. Thus making it impossible for me to separate more than a few feet of string.

 

Is there any magic trick to making this work? I guess I could coat the whole string but I'd much rather not have anything that thick...

 

There are many ways to make string, one way is to start with a core of two or three threads and wind several more around the core. It is a lot easier to wind string this way. I think that is what you have and regretfully, there is no easy way to undo that. I usually pull the strands apart in the store and look for the twist and if it is counter twisted, I look for something else.

 

I have never seen a six ply or below counter twisted and so that is what I use now.

 

You can cut 25' pieces and pull the single strand out, it would take time but it would work.

 

As far as using what you have, it will work fine it will just be large so use a sizing tip to make it the size you want as it leaves the machine.

[NightHawkInLight]

A thought I have (but have not tried) is to soak the string in hot water right before separating. It should loosen up the strain put on each strand during manufacture. The string is twisted in a way that makes it want to wrap itself around the core. Other than untwisting each strand to take the tension off, relieving the strain via relaxing the cotton in hot water may be the only way to go about it.

[gordohigh]

I was in Michaels craft center a few days ago and noticed they have some varius rolls of small cottong string, almost like thread but I think it was for hand embroidering where you put the fabric on one of those round hoops. It might be a good size to use for making multi strand fuse. I was actually looking at those hoops thinking it might work for installing a screen for screening small batches of comp. Walmart closed down their fabric center, at least the one in my town did, making more room for big dollar items I guess. Anyway, you might want to check craft stores for cotton string.

 

Nighthawkinlight, I truely enjoy your videos, thanks!!

Edited January 8, 2010 by gordohigh

[dagabu]

I was in Michaels craft center a few days ago and noticed they have some varius rolls of small cottong string, almost like thread but I think it was for hand embroidering where you put the fabric on one of those round hoops. It might be a good size to use for making multi strand fuse. I was actually looking at those hoops thinking it might work for installing a screen for screening small batches of comp. Walmart closed down their fabric center, at least the one in my town did, making more room for big dollar items I guess. Anyway, you might want to check craft stores for cotton string.

 

Nighthawkinlight, I truely enjoy your videos, thanks!!

 

WalMart still has the yarn, look for Peaches and Cream, 100% mercerized cotton yarn. This would be in the craft area, they have not removed that from any state side Wallyworld. Nephew is a purchaser for them.

 

The thread you are speaking of is embroidery thread, it is not a very good choice due to it being 12 or more ply, it doesn't allow the BP to penetrate the core causing bad spots after it has been bent.

[Mumbles]

Walmart has very very thin stuff for chrocheting I do believe. There was something else on one about bed spread twine. It is very thin stuff, less than 0.5mm if I had to guess. I've used it for blackmatch with people before. It always made nice crossmatch, and a few strands inside the paper pipe made lightning fast QM.

 

I've never tried yarn but I suppose it could compact.

[dagabu]

Walmart has very very thin stuff for chrocheting I do believe. There was something else on one about bed spread twine. It is very thin stuff, less than 0.5mm if I had to guess. I've used it for blackmatch with people before. It always made nice crossmatch, and a few strands inside the paper pipe made lightning fast QM.

 

I've never tried yarn but I suppose it could compact.

 

Oh THANKS!!!

 

You know that I am a string whore and you go and tell me about another thread!?!

 

Guess what I am doing this weekend?

 

(Do you know where I can get some? I cant find it in a simple search.)

Edited January 8, 2010 by dagabu

[Bonny]

You know that I am a string whore and you go and tell me about another thread!?!

 

Guess what I am doing this weekend?

 

Pullin' your string ?

[dagabu]

Pullin' your string ?

 

BWA, Ha, ha!

 

Seriously Bonny, Pale Ale hurts really bad streaming out of your nose!

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

Just buy something like the attachment.

 

For making crossmatch and that kind of stuff I'd advice to ad 20% Arabic gum solution to your meal until its a nice slurry. Makes rockhard blackmatch.

And you don't need to soak in all the twine, totally unnecessary, just be sure the surface is coated in slurry.

Edited January 8, 2010 by FREAKYDUTCHMEN

[dagabu]

Just buy something like the attachment.

 

For making crossmatch and that kind of stuff I'd advice to ad 20% Arabic gum solution to your meal until its a nice slurry. Makes rockhard blackmatch.

And you don't need to soak in all the twine, totally unnecessary, just be sure the surface is coated in slurry.

 

That looks like the Peaches and Cream mercerized yarn. I run all my blackmatch through a KNO3 saturated solution first and then through the BP in suspension. I tried the GA but was not happy with the result. It felt a little sticky when dry and really stuck to everything when humid.

 

If you use your BM as cross match and bend it to fit the cannule, it WILL matter, I assure you.

[Bonny]

I run all my blackmatch through a KNO3 saturated solution first and then through the BP in suspension.

 

Do you find that the KNO3 really helps stop "dead spots" and/or make it burn better. I've read a lot of different opinions on if it is worthwhile soaking first...

[dagabu]

Do you find that the KNO3 really helps stop "dead spots" and/or make it burn better. I've read a lot of different opinions on if it is worthwhile soaking first...

 

Good question, I do it because I really hate hang fires! One show this past year we had a 4" shell leave the mortar 10 minutes after the show was over. If it was one of the first fired, it could have been sitting there smoldering for 30 minutes or more. We have a two man crew walk the racks with a flashlight and mirror looking for duds and flag the live ones, that scared us all.

 

KNO3 keeps the string burning no matter what and burns at 10 seconds per inch on clean cotton string so no shell can hang for more then a few seconds because of a bare spot.

 

I also make slow match for lighting matchlocks, cannons and fireworks. I use Sodium Nitrate though because it is a lot less hygroscopic than KNO3. 1/4" hemp soaked in NaNO3 will burn 1 foot per hour.

 

On the fourth, I back twist 1/2" Sodium Nitrate saturated sisal rope and stick fire crackers in the twist every 1/16", a cracker goes off once every minute if done right, a 12' rope will get you through the entire day from noon till midnight.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

That looks like the Peaches and Cream mercerized yarn. I run all my blackmatch through a KNO3 saturated solution first and then through the BP in suspension. I tried the GA but was not happy with the result. It felt a little sticky when dry and really stuck to everything when humid.

 

If you use your BM as cross match and bend it to fit the cannule, it WILL matter, I assure you.

 

Hehe, you think I'm telling crap? I have a couple of years experience with making/using BM with AG. Made over 120 shells with it without one blind shell.

Mine BM doesn't feel sticky at all.

The twine I'm showing is 100% pure bleached cotton.

A couple of fractures isn't a problem at all, by the way, commercial blackmatch is made with only dextrin very often.

 

I know guys who made a big batch of bad blackmatch, after a while we found out they soaked the twine in KNO3 solution, resulting in a excess of kno3. Thats why it burned so slow.

 

Just keep it simple, don't think too difficult or too theoretical.

Making fireworks is already a lot of work, don't make it even more.

 

If you confine BM (like in a passfire or quickmatch) you won't have any "dead spot".

[dagabu]

Hehe, you think I'm telling crap? I have a couple of years experience with making/using BM with AG. Made over 120 shells with it without one blind shell.

Mine BM doesn't feel sticky at all.

The twine I'm showing is 100% pure bleached cotton.

A couple of fractures isn't a problem at all, by the way, commercial blackmatch is made with only dextrin very often.

 

I know guys who made a big batch of bad blackmatch, after a while we found out they soaked the twine in KNO3 solution, resulting in a excess of kno3. Thats why it burned so slow.

 

Just keep it simple, don't think too difficult or too theoretical.

Making fireworks is already a lot of work, don't make it even more.

 

If you confine BM (like in a passfire or quickmatch) you won't have any "dead spot".

 

I think you may be getting a little over excited with this whole issue. The question posed was simply; Pliable black / quickmatch.

 

Now go get your undies out of a bunch and consider what I said. We are NOT removing the dextrin, we are substituting 1% CMC in the slurry to suspend the particles, dextrine alone MUST be constantly agitated to keep it in suspension.

 

20% Gum Arabic will SLOW the burn down considerably. It is not good fuel so it does not contribute to the BP, it does not fully burn and leaves ash when it burns. Perhaps 4% GA and 1% CMC would work but 20% is way to much.

 

"we found out they soaked the twine in KNO3 solution, resulting in a excess of kno3. Thats why it burned so slow" If you saturate the string (twine will not take BP well, its string or yarn) and don't pull the excess out via a sizing die, then true enough, you will have all water and no BP in the core. Water, not KNO3, you had drenched the core, it was not the KNO3.

 

"Commercial Blackmatch", I make commercial ball mill jars, I do not have a factory, I do not have employees, what standard are you assigning to Commercial Blackmatch? A lot of the "Commercial Blackmatch" you are talking about is made in China with wheat paste, Dextrin, any starch they can get their hands on. Our club had a dozen of the same shell missfire then hang fire. Every one was due to "Commercial Blackmatch" that failed to pass fire. We shot around 60,000 shells last year, only the cheap Chinese "Commercial Blackmatch" leadered shells failed to fire.

 

BTW- you are using yarn, not twine, there is a difference and as I said, 100% mercerized cotton yarn. I know guys that make fireworks professionally, sell them and make the components. Gary of Precocious Pyrotechnics makes the very best Black Match and cross match just the way I said. I think his materials have launched perhaps 1,000,000 shells or more.

[Swede]

Our local craft store has the Peaches & Cream as well as a dozen other mercerized 100% cotton string products - and it's all dirt cheap. One trip to such a store (Michael's or Hobby Lobby) will set you up for life with cotton string in every imaginable size.

 

I like the Peaches & Cream (lame name) because it does seem to hold/absorb the slurry better, IMO. But if you need finer string, it's there.

 

I like running three fine strands through the BM machine, then twisting upon exit. Even if your slurry is nothing exotic, just BP and maybe a little dextrin, it'll make reliable BM that will not fail, regardless of abuse. I took a section of this twisted BM and abused it - crushed, twisted, all sorts of nastiness, and it burned with vigour.

 

See my "Micro BM machine" tutorial for more info. The twisted BM has never failed me, but I don't have as much experience here than most.

 

I like the thought of CMC gum as a BM additive. Moreso than the other water-based adhesives, it seems flexible, and the cured BM will probably withstand abuse more than dextrin or gum arabic. But I do agree that 2% to 4% is more than adequate.

 

As for soaking in KNO3, it seems to me to be an unnecessary step if the BM you create is a high quality match, vs taking a string and sticking it in a cup with slurry, then dragging it out. But if that's how you do it, it cannot hurt to soak it in nitrate first.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Swede

[dagabu]

As for soaking in KNO3, it seems to me to be an unnecessary step if the BM you create is a high quality match, vs taking a string and sticking it in a cup with slurry, then dragging it out. But if that's how you do it, it cannot hurt to soak it in nitrate first.

 

If you are doing the cup option of making the BM then yes, I agree you don't need to pre-wet the string as the solution will be wicked up by the dry string. When machine (any tool that does the coating without you intervening) making BM, the string has to be pre-whetted or the dry string will pull all of the liquid out of the solution leaving a dry solution behind causing the slurry to fall off when dried.

 

Before we all get upset at the word machine and in the spirit of ease, a machine can be nothing more then a couple Tupperware tubs connected by small tubes. This process allows the hobbyist to produce enough BM to make a few dozen leaders with 4-5 strands of BM in one sitting.

 

If you would like some pictures of the process or want a tutorial of the whole system let me know. Each 1 hour BM session yields 300 feet of BM and/or 25 leaders suitable to lift 6" shells or smaller (the length of the leader is determined by the height of the mortar).

Edited January 9, 2010 by dagabu

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

I think you may be getting a little over excited with this whole issue. The question posed was simply; Pliable black / quickmatch.

 

Now go get your undies out of a bunch and consider what I said. We are NOT removing the dextrin, we are substituting 1% CMC in the slurry to suspend the particles, dextrine alone MUST be constantly agitated to keep it in suspension.

 

20% Gum Arabic will SLOW the burn down considerably. It is not good fuel so it does not contribute to the BP, it does not fully burn and leaves ash when it burns. Perhaps 4% GA and 1% CMC would work but 20% is way to much.

 

"we found out they soaked the twine in KNO3 solution, resulting in a excess of kno3. Thats why it burned so slow" If you saturate the string (twine will not take BP well, its string or yarn) and don't pull the excess out via a sizing die, then true enough, you will have all water and no BP in the core. Water, not KNO3, you had drenched the core, it was not the KNO3.

 

"Commercial Blackmatch", I make commercial ball mill jars, I do not have a factory, I do not have employees, what standard are you assigning to Commercial Blackmatch? A lot of the "Commercial Blackmatch" you are talking about is made in China with wheat paste, Dextrin, any starch they can get their hands on. Our club had a dozen of the same shell missfire then hang fire. Every one was due to "Commercial Blackmatch" that failed to pass fire. We shot around 60,000 shells last year, only the cheap Chinese "Commercial Blackmatch" leadered shells failed to fire.

 

BTW- you are using yarn, not twine, there is a difference and as I said, 100% mercerized cotton yarn. I know guys that make fireworks professionally, sell them and make the components. Gary of Precocious Pyrotechnics makes the very best Black Match and cross match just the way I said. I think his materials have launched perhaps 1,000,000 shells or more.

 

Did I talked about chinese quickmatch? How on earth do you know I'm talking about chinese stuff?

 

If I talk about "commercial" I'm talk about blackmatch which can be bought per length or is already attached to shells. Made in a factory for profit purposes.

 

I haven't said you were telling crap, I'm just irritated you're telling my advices aren't good, just because maybe your skills aren't ok.

If you were experienced enough with this matter you should know a 20% AG solution wouldn't make 20% AG blackmatch.

 

If I see lots of white residue after burning some BP or BM, I'm sure its KNO3.

 

 

 

Just show some nice shells you've made yourself, maybe then I'll take your post a bit more serious.

I don't care about who's shooting a million shells, this is a forum particular for amateur pyrotechnics ( guys who do not make fireworks for a living). APC remember.

 

You probably want to have the last word on this, well go ahead.

 

 

@everybody except dabagu: The 20% solution must be made a view hours or a day before using it, it dissolves quite slowly, You can store the solution in a pet bottle for more than a year.

Edited January 9, 2010 by FREAKYDUTCHMEN