AdmiralDonSnider Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Just checked the one source I know (Undergroundgadgets) to find out that they are currently charging $20 per 25g. I assume this is a typo?! Anyone knows other sources if one desires to try out some of the oldtime PG formulas? Other than that, has anybody ever sythesized that stuff at home or in a laboratory? Shimizu gives a detailed description of the process, but the arsenious acids scares me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 You can occasionally find it on places like ebay, but other than that it is pretty hard to come by. I've never synthesized it, but I do have the necessary reagents and plan to give it a shot sometime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 You can occasionally find it on places like ebay, but other than that it is pretty hard to come by. I've never synthesized it, but I do have the necessary reagents and plan to give it a shot sometime. Don´t you worry about having to deal with arsenic-III-oxide, the oral LD of which being about 0,1 grams as far as I remember? How much of the oxide would be necessary to make up the arsenious acid, just interested... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 The LDLo, the lowest published lethal dose, for man is around 2g for a 70kg person. I am not extremely worried. It's nothing gloves, a painting suit, and a respirator can't take care of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I just did a sweep of all my suppliers and no one is showing it as available. Cracker doesnt have it on his price list, I am surprised it is showing up on his web site. When it does show up, I usually see it for $10.00 - $15.00 a pound. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 For paris green? I think the last prices I saw were around $30 to $35 a pound. It's becoming rather rare stuff. I could make a fortune making paris green and HCB for the rest of my life. Michael D on passfire was selling As2O3 a while ago for pretty cheap. I also kind of question Dr. Shimizu's ratios. It seems he uses a lot of material to only get a few hundred grams. I bet the reaction could be optimized and vastly increase yield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dagabu Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 For paris green? I think the last prices I saw were around $30 to $35 a pound. It's becoming rather rare stuff. I could make a fortune making paris green and HCB for the rest of my life. Michael D on passfire was selling As2O3 a while ago for pretty cheap. I also kind of question Dr. Shimizu's ratios. It seems he uses a lot of material to only get a few hundred grams. I bet the reaction could be optimized and vastly increase yield. True, Mike had some recently but it showed up three times this last year on PF for 10 -15 bucks a pound in the stuff for sale area. That is where I got my amounts. It may all have been crap, you would be the guy that would know, I would just mix it and pout when it didn't work. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 I too wondered that he only gets 180 grams yield. Make sure you post the optimized procedure in case you are successfull. May I ask again how much As2O3 would be necessary to make up the 200ml of arsenious acid requested by Shimizu? I also wonder what vacuum filtration is and if this is necessary at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I did some playing, and his numbers are suprisingly accurate, quantity wise but his yield is only about 50%. I almost wonder if yield would improve if you made copper acetate right away instead of using copper sulfate and acetic acid which stays as just a mixture. This is what I came up with using the same 200g of As2O3 in molar exact quantities. CuSO4*5H2O - 336.6gGlacial Acetic Acid - 40.8gSodium Carbonate - 214.3gAs2O3 - 200g The copper sulfate could be replaced with 1.35mol of copper acetate. You should be getting around 341g in theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quicksilver Posted February 8, 2010 Share Posted February 8, 2010 There was one source that I had overlooked for (tough to get materials) and that is places that either sell elements of (best of all) Rock and mineral collecting places) In our "Big city" some was from where I live there are quite a few and recently we are having our annual "Gem Show". Well Arsenic in raw form is available at extremely low rates but from there you have to do a bit of chemistry."Rocks & Minerals" collectors are a GREAT source of many items. Sometimes science supply houses have Elements available as "display grade" (technical); another great source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xetap Posted February 10, 2010 Share Posted February 10, 2010 (edited) I got Paris green from Bent Spoon Materials (edhunkins@centurytel.net) https://www.bentspoonmaterials.com/forsale.aspx Last I checked, he was almost outta business (down very low on chems, etc.), but an email could be sent to verify this. Edited February 10, 2010 by xetap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted April 12, 2010 Author Share Posted April 12, 2010 Here is a source for bulk PG I found about three weeks ago. I tried to get a hold of a bag or two, but while having the money, I couldn´t find a safe way to get this shipped to Europe without having big troubles at the border. http://www.agriseek.com/chemicals/p/Paris-Green-Cooper-Acetoarsenite.htm The quality should be good, as it is PG from the old Sherwin Williams Co. Don´t know if it´s useful for US based members... Just in case anyone knows a way how to ship a portion to Europe without getting badly fined or arrested, please let me know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankRizzo Posted April 12, 2010 Share Posted April 12, 2010 Here is a source for bulk PG I found about three weeks ago. I tried to get a hold of a bag or two, but while having the money, I couldn´t find a safe way to get this shipped to Europe without having big troubles at the border. http://www.agriseek.com/chemicals/p/Paris-Green-Cooper-Acetoarsenite.htm The quality should be good, as it is PG from the old Sherwin Williams Co. Don´t know if it´s useful for US based members... Just in case anyone knows a way how to ship a portion to Europe without getting badly fined or arrested, please let me know.... AdmiralDonSnider, That is actually Underground Gadgets (Neil is the proprietor/Cracker) selling the material. Unfortunately, no, there's no way to send pesticides over to Europe without a significant amount of paperwork. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted April 13, 2010 Author Share Posted April 13, 2010 Oh, sorry, I didn´t realize that Neil is the proprietor. You´re right, there is no way if you declare the contents correctly ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfstraydog1 Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 I don’t mean to hijack this thread but I have a question on mercurie oxide. Could it be used as a substitution for paris green. I was told it was but I don’t have a lot of experience working with this chemical Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventsi Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 Well I very highly doubt it. The two have just about nothing in common other than that they are poisonous. A substitute in what way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfstraydog1 Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 i have been told it could be used for a direct substitution for paris green in stars. but i was not to sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 I haven't really heard of mercury oxide being used in stars. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Mercury Chloride (calomel). It was generally used in conjunction with paris green as a chlorine donor. I don't recall ever seeing it being used as the sole colorant. Mercury does have a somewhat blue-ish emission spectra, but it doesn't seem good enough for a colorant. Maybe at pyrotechnic flame temperatures the blue gets more pronounced. I really don't want to stand close enough to find out though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfstraydog1 Posted July 29, 2010 Share Posted July 29, 2010 ya i have not found a good use for it. all i know it was used in batteries. and what a fellow pyro friend told me. thanks for the help Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted August 2, 2010 Author Share Posted August 2, 2010 A detail in the synthesis Im still wondering about: Shimizus process calls for arsenious acid, but arsenious acid is not As2O3; it´s a solution of arsenic trioxide in water. So how much arsenic trioxid (powder) would you actually need to make up the 200g of arsenious acid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted August 7, 2010 Share Posted August 7, 2010 Not Paris Green, but a precursor - Skylighter has small quantities of Orpiment and Realgar. Fabulously expensive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted August 16, 2010 Author Share Posted August 16, 2010 (edited) A detail in the synthesis Im still wondering about: Shimizus process calls for arsenious acid, but arsenious acid is not As2O3; it´s a solution of arsenic trioxide in water. So how much arsenic trioxid (powder) would you actually need to make up the 200g of arsenious acid? It seems that I´ve once again revealed my ignorance in chemistry. Arsenic trioxide is arsenious acid (its anhydride) and it is the solid white arsenic that Shimizu calls for. According to his sayings 200g of it will result in about 180 grams of the arsenite. Why is Shimizu using sodium carbonate for the process? Isn´t it tricky to remove all sodium traces then? Edited August 16, 2010 by AdmiralDonSnider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted June 3, 2011 Author Share Posted June 3, 2011 Would still be interested in the question if the sodium carbonate used in the synthesis won´t spoil the color if present in traces? Or is it all eliminated by washing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted June 4, 2011 Share Posted June 4, 2011 ADS, sodium will most certainly spoil a blue color but since Paris Green is insoluble, I imagine you can wash out all traces if you add a little vinegar to the wash water. But seriously, wouldn't it be easier just to buy ready made? Paris Green isn't unobtanium, nor is it illegal to possess it. I'll wager you already know someone who can provide it, though probably they wouldn't advertise the fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted June 5, 2011 Author Share Posted June 5, 2011 (edited) Paris Green isn't unobtanium... Here in Europe it is; at least if you´re not willing to spend ridiculous sums. About the vinegar: the process uses acetic acid anyway; will this help eliminating the sodium? Just wonder why Shimizu doesn´t vote for e.g. potassium carbonate. Edited June 5, 2011 by AdmiralDonSnider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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