vladou Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) Hello, This afternoon was the first time I used my ball mill. There was a mix of 54g of charcoal and 47,6g of sulfur inside (that I beforehand passed through my 120 mesh screen). After 1 hour, the rubber belt broke because of the heat. I checked inside the barrel and I've been pretty amazed because the powder looked very fine. But now, I don't know if I should mill it a little bit more.. (I will make 400g of black powder using the CIA method) Any suggestions ? (Please correct my english if I did some mistakes..) Edited November 17, 2009 by vladou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 That rubber belt thing shouldn´t happen...is there something wrong with your design or motor producing heat excessively? Other than that the milling time depends on the use and the efficiency of your mill. In case of BP you will wanna go for speed. If you´re using an optimized mill (like the design proposed by Sponenburgh) two hour milled C/S will give good-excellent powder given the CIA is well executed. I never went so far as to mill one hour only, but who knows... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladou Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I don't have a decent rubber belt.. I use the rubber which is around a lego wheel (the right one on the pic) http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_lgsY8hHQTwk/Rsli7_4CHBI/AAAAAAAAA6U/WSWYQy3kREo/s400/roues%20et%20pneux.PNG I have it three others but they will also soon break because they tend to crumble off.. However, I have nothing else to use.. Next times, I will cool them by passing them in water every 30min. My ball mill is 1/4 filled with comp, 1/2 filled with media and has a good RPM. Edited November 17, 2009 by vladou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladou Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Here are some pics.. As you can see, it's a drill powered ball mill (and no, the drill doesn't burn out) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Two points1/ get a decent pair of pulleys and a proper drive belt - a Urethane O ring will do better than 2 hours (possibly two years! 2/ If you have a mill why not make milled BP? Throw everything through a mesh about 60mesh then weigh it and mill the complete mix. 3/ CIA powder is inferior to most others so whydo you use an odd mix too? 75/15/10 is a standard mix and given good charcoal will produce good results Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladou Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 1. I will. I'm looking for it. 2. Because I can make more black powder at once (if I put everything I only can mill 200g of BP) and I don't want to mill BP because I live in an apartment. 3. CIA method is inferior to most others BP methods ?! I don't think so and I don't use an odd mix. 74.6% KNO3/13,5% C/11.9% S is known to be the optimal composition. I use my own willow charcoal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 CIA has been proved over and over to provide inferior results to powder that has been milled together. There is some data in one of the Best of AFN books, and I believe in Ian von Malitz' book "Blackpowder: Manufacturing, Testing, and Optimization". As far as ratio, what is it optimal for? Each application has a different optimal composition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladou Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 mmh, a vacuum cleaner belt ? don't know where to find that but my father will look for something.. yeah I know, each application has a different optimal composition. I will use it for lift (it's near to the standard 74/14/12) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 The standard is, and probably always will be 75/15/10. The formula you specify, 74/14/12 is something that was developed by the PGI quite a few years ago. I have no idea how they came to that final conclusion, as I cannot find the article on it. From what I have heard though, the difference is negligible. It is true that in some applications, such as firearms, the ratio is varied. This is done in part to reduce fouling, and provide a slightly softer thrust at the same granulation size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladou Posted November 18, 2009 Author Share Posted November 18, 2009 When I said the optimum composition (74,6/13,5/11,9) I was referring to Pyroguide. I believed that it was the composition who was going to produce the maximum power. There are many products produced by the combustion of BP and I can't write the exact equation to calculate the best weight of each chemicals. With which equation did the guy on Pyroguide developpe the "optimum composition" 74,64/13,51/11,85 ? So, the best way to make a good homemade BP is to mill the standard 75/15/10 in a ball mill ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 I'm just saying that any of these compositions will produce nearly identical results. You can use whatever you like. I prefer 75/15/10 because it's easy to calculate other quantities. As far as pyroguide, it has some good information and some bad information. Take whatever you read from there with some caution. As far as what formula he used to get that formula, probably none. He likely saw it somewhere from a guy who got it from another guy who didn't transcribe it right from a book written by a third party from the original source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekroolz Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I'm just saying that any of these compositions will produce nearly identical results. You can use whatever you like. I prefer 75/15/10 because it's easy to calculate other quantities. As far as pyroguide, it has some good information and some bad information. Take whatever you read from there with some caution. As far as what formula he used to get that formula, probably none. He likely saw it somewhere from a guy who got it from another guy who didn't transcribe it right from a book written by a third party from the original source. God, dude I just want to sit down with you and talk. Let your wisdom fly onto me. Nohomo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usatrapper Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I dont se why anyone would make a ball mill, you can buy one at www.cannonfuse.com for $44.00 US dollars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firetech Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 People grind lbs of comp at a time, because they need it. With a mill like that its simply impossible to be as efficient and produce the same results in the same timeframe as a much larger mill would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usatrapper Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 People grind lbs of comp at a time, because they need it. With a mill like that its simply impossible to be as efficient and produce the same results in the same timeframe as a much larger mill would do. Yes I agree, but if you are young like me and only get 2 pounds of a few chemicals every 2 months its good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firetech Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 What exactly are you working on? You only need to buy KNO3 and Sulfur for bp. You can make dextrin and charcoal on your own, which is actually preferred. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usatrapper Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 What exactly are you working on? You only need to buy KNO3 and Sulfur for bp. You can make dextrin and charcoal on your own, which is actually preferred. Yes but i need many other chemicals to make stars.... So I dont always have as much chems as I need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarbelly Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 You can make all sorts of different stars with only the chemicals used for black powder. You may want to use a different charcoal, but the principle is the same nevertheless. Plus building tools can be great fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 CIA has been proved over and over to provide inferior results to powder that has been milled together. There is some data in one of the Best of AFN books, and I believe in Ian von Malitz' book "Blackpowder: Manufacturing, Testing, and Optimization". Could you give some arguments why this necessarily is the case? You have to know that I´m no militant CIA-fan, I just wonder if people make mistakes and blame it on the method...Other than that it´s strange that you quote von Maltitz, as he is the one who presented the combined CIA+ ball milling approach as the best method in his first book. As I´ve the second book handy, could you point me at the site where he qualifies his own former statements? Just interested... When I said the optimum composition (74,6/13,5/11,9) I was referring to Pyroguide. I believed that it was the composition who was going to produce the maximum power. There may be optimum comps, but all of these refer to both raw materials and manufacturing methods being known and exactly defined; hence e.g. the carbon content of the charcoal is exactly known before the equation is calculated. If you don´t use the same charcoal, it´s basically useless. The same is true with regard to the method of manufacture; e.g. the well-known Waltham Abbey formula is suited for powder being integrated in commercial wheel mills. However, it also gives decent homemade powder and noone cares if it´s optimized for a particular method or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladou Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 Did my BP yesterday, I will try it as soon as it will be dry. Other than that it´s strange that you quote von Maltitz, as he is the one who presented the combined CIA+ ball milling approach as the best method in his first book.When you say CIA + ball milling, you mean mill the fuels and then make the BP with CIA method or make the BP and then mill the end product ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 When you say CIA + ball milling, you mean mill the fuels and then make the BP with CIA method or make the BP and then mill the end product ? The former, using ballmilled C/S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vladou Posted November 21, 2009 Author Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) Ok I've just tryed my BP. It looks good but I can see some small white pellets after the combustion. (too large KNO3 crystals in BP?) Here is a video. (1g) cia_bp.mov Edited November 21, 2009 by vladou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derekroolz Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Ok I've just tryed my BP. It looks good but I can see some small white pellets after the combustion. (too large KNO3 crystals in BP?) Here is a video. (1g) This is granulated correct? And when the white balls appear it is fine, as long as, your not using it in a gun or for other things were you rely* on clean conbustion. But other than that it would probably make great lift/rocket fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarbelly Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 Residue left after combustion generally means it is not mixed well enough, but through the CIA method, I think this is pretty likely to always be a problem. If you rely on the CIA method, I believe the residue will always be there, but as derekroolz said, it shouldn't be too big of an issue for basic uses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted November 22, 2009 Share Posted November 22, 2009 Residue left after combustion generally means it is not mixed well enough, but through the CIA method, I think this is pretty likely to always be a problem. If you rely on the CIA method, I believe the residue will always be there Definately not. Again, it seems that people make mistakes and blame it on the method. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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