Swede Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Ammonium perchlorate is one oxidizer that I have not experimented with... yet. I picked up a couple pounds of the mixed mesh stuff from Firefox. Nice and cheap. I know it is a common oxidizer and excellent for blues, but I am ashamed to say I don't feel like I understand the dangers as well as I should. Can someone run through the obvious incompatibilities in both milling to a fine mesh, and ultimately creating comps with this material? How would you guys rate it in terms of potential (overall) hazard? Something like this? Ammonium Chlorate (death comp) >>> Potassium Chlorate > Ammonium perchlorate > Potassium perchlorate TY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
optimus Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Other than the obvious DO NOT MIX WITH CHLORATE, and being a high-explosive in its own right , I've read alot of formula notes which warn that "compositions made with AP are more shock sensetive than is generally recognised", or something to that effect. I am more wary with AP compared to PP - I don't put it in a coffee grinder with other oxidisers for instance, but I haven't done any impact testing of any kind so this is more of a precaution than anything based on experimentation. Having said that, I've made many fountains with AP and lightly hand-tamped them (with stearine and Ti) with no problems. I've had trouble with AP clumping when milling - possibly to do with the fact that it likes to hold on to what water it absorbs... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I come from an amateur rocketry background, and AP rusts anything and everything it comes in contact with, so don't coffee grind unless you wash the heck out of it. It is incompatible with Mg if wet. If its coated, or bound without water you should be fine. It is fine to mill, but it increases burn speed. Good AP shouldn't clump too bad, less than KP for sure. It is skin irritant to some extent, so wear gloves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrankRizzo Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Besides the corrosion issue that Tyron mentioned, since you have chlorate around you need to be especially good in your housekeeping to avoid cross-contamination issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
optimus Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 I come from an amateur rocketry background, and AP rusts anything and everything it comes in contact with, so don't coffee grind unless you wash the heck out of it. It is incompatible with Mg if wet. If its coated, or bound without water you should be fine. It is fine to mill, but it increases burn speed. Good AP shouldn't clump too bad, less than KP for sure. It is skin irritant to some extent, so wear gloves. Good point. I managed to destroy some steel media before I realised this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdmiralDonSnider Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Can someone run through the obvious incompatibilities in both milling to a fine mesh, and ultimately creating comps with this material? Besides the things already mentioned there is the necessity to use potassium dichromate coated magnesium and the necessity to use a non KNO3-based prime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 yeah using a KNO3 based prime makes it very safe no need to worry about accidental ignition or infact intentional ignition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TYRONEEZEKIEL Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 yeah using a KNO3 based prime makes it very safe no need to worry about accidental ignition or infact intentional ignitionWait.... Don't use a KNO3 based prime as it will react with NH4ClO4 to make NH4NO3 KNO3 + NH4ClO4---> KClO4 + NH4NO3 It will take a bit of time for that reaction to happen, so I'd say you could prime with BP but it would have to be within the first day of priming stars. Anything after that and the stars will not work, and are just mushy. Better yet... Just use a Kperch prime. Thats what I use and it works every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
optimus Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) Wait.... Don't use a KNO3 based prime as it will react with NH4ClO4 to make NH4NO3 KNO3 + NH4ClO4---> KClO4 + NH4NO3 It will take a bit of time for that reaction to happen, so I'd say you could prime with BP but it would have to be within the first day of priming stars. Anything after that and the stars will not work, and are just mushy. Better yet... Just use a Kperch prime. Thats what I use and it works every time. I believe that Ralph's comment involved a little sarcasm Edited August 21, 2009 by optimus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted August 24, 2009 Author Share Posted August 24, 2009 Good information, thank you all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I believe that Ralph's comment involved a little sarcasm just a little Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparksnsky Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Hi all I have a small amount of AP expirementing with blues from time to time. I've read about AP sensitivity and there are references that it is sensitive even by itself. On this base I am very sceptical to grind it in anyway. Most easy for me is to use a coffee grinder. I read in your posts above that you have tried it without mentioning about any risk about this method. Can I suppose that grinding AP with coffee grinder does not involve risks provided that it is not mixed with anything else?Thanks in advance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted May 31, 2010 Share Posted May 31, 2010 Yeah, it's probably fine to grind in a coffee grinder. I know plenty of people who have ball milled large amounts without issues. I think you may be confusing the acronym AP. In our industry, it can stand for two things. Ammonium perchlorate, and acetone peroxide. The latter is much more sensitive, and has no use in actual pyrotechnics. It's more of a high explosive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marks265 Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Is a problem present with AP, CU, and water? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparksnsky Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Yeah, it's probably fine to grind in a coffee grinder. I know plenty of people who have ball milled large amounts without issues. I think you may be confusing the acronym AP. In our industry, it can stand for two things. Ammonium perchlorate, and acetone peroxide. The latter is much more sensitive, and has no use in actual pyrotechnics. It's more of a high explosive. Thanks for your advice Mumbles, Ammonium perchlorate is what I had in mind. Acetone peroxide is out of my interest as it is very dangerous.I will use coffee grinder. Hope this contribute to even better blues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted June 1, 2010 Share Posted June 1, 2010 Mark, if you mean copper metal, then yes there is an issue. It will corrode it, just as it eats through brass sieves. If you are talking about copper compounds, I believe it is only an issue with soluble copper salts. Copper Oxide, copper carbonate, and copper oxychloride are all fine with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 I'm sure most people know about the Pepcon incident with ammonium perchlorate, but just in case . This is what happens when you store 500 tons of AP in plastic kegs in the parking lot, and then weld something nearby. Storing a few pounds is probably safe enough but I wouldn't want to go near it in an accidental fire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marks265 Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Mark, if you mean copper metal, then yes there is an issue. It will corrode it, just as it eats through brass sieves. If you are talking about copper compounds, I believe it is only an issue with soluble copper salts. Copper Oxide, copper carbonate, and copper oxychloride are all fine with it. Yes, powdered copper metal was my concern. I've avoided this situation because I knew of a problem but was unsure of it's extent of damage. I have been successful with AP and CU powder, of course avoiding H2O in stars. You will see them this weekend should you make the shoot. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dystrophy Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 Yes, powdered copper metal was my concern. I've avoided this situation because I knew of a problem but was unsure of it's extent of damage. I have been successful with AP and CU powder, of course avoiding H2O in stars. You will see them this weekend should you make the shoot. Mark *twitch* Cu my friend, Cu. Cuprum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted June 2, 2010 Share Posted June 2, 2010 You mean you don't like Uranium Carbide? heh Good you see you around again Dystrophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marks265 Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 *twitch* Cu my friend, Cu. Cuprum. Thanks for the distinction. I am more of a hillbilly and less of a chemist. I guess its back to long hand and less laziness. bump. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dystrophy Posted June 3, 2010 Share Posted June 3, 2010 You mean you don't like Uranium Carbide? heh Good you see you around again Dystrophy. Aye, thanks. Its been a while. Glad you're still around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventsi Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Okay, WTF, I am tripping out over here. Here I am listening to all you guys saying NH4+ + ClO3- = death, so I did a little test, took a few crystals of fresh KClO3 ground them up to a find powder using a metal spoon on a flat ceramic surface, then I took some Ammonium Perchlorate, Skylighter stuff and dumped it on top, both chemicals were around 100-200mg each. So I start vigorously mixing them together with the flat side of the spoon, I mean rubbing dragging crushing whatever you want to call it and nothing. KClO3 and Sulfur sounds like a "crackle ball" at this point, so I though *Hey, it IS a double-displacement rxn so some water has to get those ions swapping*. Okay I took a drop of hot water and plopped it on top, stirred well with a tooth pick and let it dry, went at it again, still nothing. I am not saying that its not a death mix or trying to defy anything you guys have said but what the heck? How can I get this stuff to "work" if you will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 its more of a slow thing with them that occurs much more when wet AP and chlorate dosnt give you a fuel and you need much more energy to get AP to "burn" (people say it isnt a burn but it decomposes with what looks like a flame) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peret Posted July 9, 2010 Share Posted July 9, 2010 Ammonium chlorate is highly unstable - according to Shidlovskiy, "ammonium chlorate ... is capable of spontaneous decomposition and even explosion when the temperature is raised slightly (30-60 deg C)." If he says it, I believe it. He warns against mixing any metal chlorate with any ammonium salt*. It's a double decomposition reaction so some moisture is required, but it makes any such mixtures with any fuel very dangerous. Shidlovskiy also mentions that a mixture of potassium chlorate and ammonium nitrate explodes (his word) at 120C so accidentally mixing a chlorate, a nitrate and an ammonium salt, such as might happen while making various stars, sounds even more dangerous. Since the decomposition temperature is so low, the chances are in your hot water experiment it decomposed as it was being created. * Except KClO3 and NH4Cl, since ammonium chloride is more soluble than any of the other possible products so the double decomposition doesn't occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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