Mindphreak Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 For all those who use lead/amtimony in there ball mills, what precautions should be taken due to the side effects of lead on health? Do you think lead dust is being generated while the mill is operated? If so, is a dust mask a good precaution or do I need to also get gloves for handling bp. Do you think I shouldnt touch the bp because if Ive had it all over my hands I don't want to get any type of poisoning. Mods- If you find this repetitive from the milling media posts below, please delete this. I just want to get a good idea of the do's and dont's around this metal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunzway Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 I use a mixture of lead and brass media in my ball mill. I don't take any precautions with it besides when opening the jar to avoid breathing air born dust thus I do it in a ventilated area or wear a respirator/dust mask. I suppose there would be lead dust being slowly generated while the mill is in operation, it would be very minimal though. I've been using this media for a quite a while now and I can't see a difference in size between a never used lead ball. It would be good to wear a dust mask when handling black powder at anytime to avoid breathing it, but I doubt you would need to worry about the lead. I have never used gloves when handling it, as long as you don't have any open wounds/cuts you should be fine. Lead/antimony is pretty safe as long as you don't go sticking it in your mouth and digesting it, I don't think you need to worry about possibly lead dust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSidewinder Posted July 1, 2009 Share Posted July 1, 2009 This was answered to a degree in another thread, but it bears repeating. If you use *unalloyed* lead, you will lose a LOT of your media each time you mill with it, with that lead dust now in your finished BP. I believe FrankRizzo(?) and Swede(?) gave more information about the amounts. I don't believe it would present a hazard to YOU, so long as you don't breathe the mill dust, but think of what you're dumping into the environment with each shell break. Over time, that's something I'd personally be very concerned about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindphreak Posted July 1, 2009 Author Share Posted July 1, 2009 My lead is alloyed (5% Sb), so I'm hoping it won't erode. Unlike Swede (I think), after 3 ball mill runs I can see no erosion.. I've started keeping track of the wieghts of the lead after each run so I'm going to see what the difference is.I see your point about the lead/atmosphere problem. Engine knock chemicals have already laid quite a dent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaphone69 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Keep in mind, that just weighing the media will not give entirely accurate readings of erosion. Unless you were to, say... clean them with HCl? But I would suppose that (depending on the amount of media) the contamination would be irrelevant? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Do you guys know what kind is the lead from lead acid batteries ? I took it from the plate bridges and the connections. I've already cast my media and it seems harder than fishing weight lead. I hope it will last for long in my ball mill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miech Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) From Wikipedia:Practical cells are usually not made with pure lead but have small amounts of antimony, tin, calcium or selenium alloyed in the plate material.I think it is suitable, but not for chlorates (due to formation of calcium chlorate) . Edited July 2, 2009 by Miech Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaphone69 Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Everything I've read says that the plates in the cells are porous (increases surface area for the redox reaction). Of course, once you cast them, its not the problem, the real problem is the sulfurous acid trapped in the pores can cause micro pockets of the acid in the finished media. Pop on of those in your 1000g of bp, and you have the making of a bad day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I remember my first ball mill setup, I used soft, unalloyed lead balls. After executing a kilogram batch of BP, I washed the balls very thoroughly, and noticed significant erosion - they looked like they were heavily sand blasted. IIRC the amount of lead transferred to the BP was a few grams, not a trivial amount, and I can't imagine the resulting smoke is healthy at all. But that was dead soft lead. I will NEVER use unalloyed lead again, and I don't think it is a wise idea. As for alloyed, I have never tried it. Maybe someone with an alloyed lead setup and a good lab scale could weigh ten balls, before and after, and determine how much lead is going in the comp. This hobby has enough dangers without adding Pb to it. I understand for some there is no other option. Brass and stainless are expensive, and the jury is still out on the safety of ceramic media for any mixture, although it works great to take any single chemical to a fine mesh. So here's what we have: Soft Pb: Excess erosion, healthHard Pb: ?? (I don't know)Pb in Cu pipe: Still have exposed Pb, but less erosion, unless the pipe sections are capped.Ceramic: Good for single chems onlyCarbon Steel Balls: Rust like a mother and are a pain IMO.Brass/bronze: Good stuff, but expensive, and you may have slight Cu, Sn, or Zn added. Stains with use.Stainless: Awesome in every way that I've seen Any others? Heavy coins, maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 (edited) Alright, thanks. So now I'm convinced that my media will last for a long time I won't use these for chlorates, but only for black powder based mixtures and some fuels maybe.My chlorate will be milled using ball bearing balls. Everything I've read says that the plates in the cells are porous (increases surface area for the redox reaction). Of course, once you cast them, its not the problem, the real problem is the sulfurous acid trapped in the pores can cause micro pockets of the acid in the finished media. Pop on of those in your 1000g of bp, and you have the making of a bad day. I really doubt that it has sulfurous acid, because it should evaporate upon the heating and the oxide mess stays in the melting container. But even if it has traces of acid, why should it hurt my BP manufacture ? I think you're wrong here. Edited July 2, 2009 by 50AE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindphreak Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 I really doubt that it has sulfurous acid, because it should evaporate upon the heating and the oxide mess stays in the melting container. But even if it has traces of acid, why should it hurt my BP manufacture ? I think you're wrong here.YOu might as well just use tire weights. They're cheap and dont pose a risk. Maybe I'm wrong but adding sulfuric acid to bp does not sound like a good idea, especially in a barrel loaded with lead shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindphreak Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 And Swede, will chrome plated steel balls work for media or are they sparking, as I have seen them up on the web. I have not seen any lead erosion yet, but I'm using lead 'nickles' not balls. Anyways, I hate dealing with the stuff. Where did you get your stainless media? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 YOu might as well just use tire weights. They're cheap and dont pose a risk. Maybe I'm wrong but adding sulfuric acid to bp does not sound like a good idea, especially in a barrel loaded with lead shots. I cannot agree that sulfuric acid may cause problems. How do some people use agricultural sulfur for black powder then ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mindphreak Posted July 3, 2009 Author Share Posted July 3, 2009 Good point.. I'm unsure, try it if you want, but I've heard of people not using lead from batteries for this reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The same, I've also heard people from this forum using lead from acid batteries with success. I really doubt about a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 And Swede, will chrome plated steel balls work for media or are they sparking, as I have seen them up on the web. I have not seen any lead erosion yet, but I'm using lead 'nickles' not balls. Anyways, I hate dealing with the stuff. Where did you get your stainless media? I am not 100% sure about sparking. My gut says it would probably be best to use on single chems - treat it like ceramic, but honestly I don't know the answer. I used chromed carbon steel balls for a few batches of BP (carefully and isolated) with success, but that doesn't mean anything. I did notice that they still rusted anyhow. Either the chrome was too thin, it eroded a bit in spots, or both. Rust makes me nuts. I like to simply hose the media down to clean, and the water + salts makes rust. The stainless I bought was a few 4' bars of 5/8" diameter off eBay which I cut and deburred. Cost-wise it was a great deal, and I should have bought more. The bars were not exactly straight, and they may have been rejects or something. I like 5/8" diameter... 1/2" is a bit small, and 3/4" a bit large for me except for bigger jars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaphone69 Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The specific problem with sulfuric acid is in the milling of chlorate, not just bp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50AE Posted July 3, 2009 Share Posted July 3, 2009 The specific problem with sulfuric acid is in the milling of chlorate, not just bp. Very true and I agree. But what it has to do with : Pop on of those in your 1000g of bp, and you have the making of a bad day. What has BP to do with a chlorate ?Let's suppose that you meant to mill chlorate first and BP later - simply no.If you respect the safety rules, chlorates and BP should be strictly milled in separate drums with separate medias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bananaphone69 Posted July 5, 2009 Share Posted July 5, 2009 I meant 1000g chlorate lol. My bad. I just left the bp thread, and it was on my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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