S. Chlorate/ S. benzoate

[Richtee]

Any problems with this combination? Mixed a small amount, about 2 grams, confined lightly. Was quite impressive. About a 50-50 mix.

[tentacles]

The only problem I see is keeping it dry... other than friction/sensitivity.

[Richtee]

The only problem I see is keeping it dry... other than friction/sensitivity.

Thank ya sir! Yeah, it did seem to clump up a bit..the chlorate. I have extracted it from Solidox pellets. It HATES to let go of the water for sure. I have a small drying cab I built. Only 2' square and use a 25 W bulb in it with a blow-out back panel. Not that I expect to use that feature...but..ya never know. Anyway, I have about an OZ of the chlorate now, and I dried it before this test. It was sitting about a half hour in an open container and it was already starting to clump before I filled the shell.

[Richtee]

As a follow-up, seems a 3.5 Chlorate to 2 Benz is a more ideal mix. When corned/grained, it's almost like a Dragon Egg sort of effect... have not tried it in a tube this way yet.

 

On edit: I don't mean pops...but quick seperate Pfft's LOL if that's a word...

[Richtee]

Oh..forgot to mention have dampend some with water, and packed a parallel tube to try it as a rocket fuel. Eh, worst case is a nice boom ;{)

[Mumbles]

I believe cplmac has used similar chlorate whistle fuel. I know a few that have actually. Seems like very powerful stuff. Cplmac has a video somewhere of grains of chlorate whistle being lit, in which case they chirp. He did use either a 7:3, or 3:1 mixture, or something along those lines I do believe. I don't know if you'd get the same results with solidox chlorate, which I have concerns about it's purity.

 

http://www.theskypainters.com/Videos/Uncon...istleGrains.MP4

[Picric acid DOES taste bitter!]

I've used sodium benzoate and rough carbon along with KNO3 in some small fountains, the S benquite impressive. But, what youre describing is "Whistle mix" if i remember correctrly, and i see no problem with it other than moisture, since the S benzoate is quite stable as a fuel. Still, if doing larger scale stuff, use perchlorate instead.

[Niter]

Solidox.. I don't know the stuff but I know of the stuff, and web consensus seems to be its impure.

 

Solidox implies you probably live in the USA. What's keeping you from getting some high quality potassium perchlorate and using that in whistle mix? It will be much safer than chlorate, especially impure chlorate.

 

If there is an impurity in chlorate you are unsure about, always assume danger to err on the side of caution.

 

If Solidox is your thing, at least work it up to potassium chlorate (theres a recent thread on that) before proceeding, but instead go the extra mile and obtain potassium perchlorate instead.

 

In case you don't know: the worst case scenario is something going wrong and just one gram ripping off a finger and giving you hearing damage. That kind of disaster is a lot more likely with chlorate than with perchlorate.

[Richtee]

Solidox.. I don't know the stuff but I know of the stuff, and web consensus seems to be its impure.

I do live in the US and have perc handy. I just found a can of this stuff a while back and thought I'd check it out for $5.

 

Impure, yes, but can be extracted with water fairly easliy by settling out the glass fibers used as a binder and charcoal, then filtering.

 

Thanks for the reply... was just a lark really.

[Niter]

Hey just being helpful here, I heard a lot of bad stuff about Solidox on the www grapevine.

 

 

about 2 grams, confined lightly. Was quite impressive

 

 

How did you confine it, and how did it impress you? How did it compare with KClO4 whistle?

[Richtee]

Hey just being helpful here, I heard a lot of bad stuff about Solidox on the www grapevine.

 

 

about 2 grams, confined lightly. Was quite impressive

 

 

How did you confine it, and how did it impress you? How did it compare with KClO4 whistle?

Appreciate the advice! My "mentor" had previously warned me on chlorates in general, a wise old pyro I befriended a couple years ago.

 

It was prolly real close to a decent whistle. I had confined the 2g sample in a familiar cardboard tube format. No strapping, glued ends, 3/32 Visco. Not as fast as some other compounds, but gave a nice "crack", shattering the case fairly well, upon finding a few chunks.

 

But as mentioned, and as I was told my my bud... chlorate compounds earned the name "death mixes" for very good reasons.

[Swede]

Could a whistle or other similar mix to this be grained/corned/rolled, (somehow formed into tiny balls), and then coated heavily with NC lacquer to protect from moisture? It might make a nice crackle, with the heavy NC coating creating just a tiny bit of confinement, enough for a pop.

[Richtee]

Could a whistle or other similar mix to this be grained/corned/rolled, (somehow formed into tiny balls), and then coated heavily with NC lacquer to protect from moisture? It might make a nice crackle, with the heavy NC coating creating just a tiny bit of confinement, enough for a pop.

Hmm..I dunno if it's THAT fast, honestly. I have used all the chlorate I had previously extracted, and somehow now...I feel less inclined to mess with it.

 

Besides, I'd think the NC would burn off before it could possibley be stable enough for containment. But then again I know squat.

 

PS... just finished pouring the white rising with mag chips comet on the salute/poly star trial. HEAVILY primed stars with 15 mesh BP.

[Niter]

Yup you can't be too careful with chlorates! Better warned ad nauseum than blown to oblivion.

 

 

Impure, yes, but can be extracted with water fairly easliy by settling out the glass fibers used as a binder and charcoal, then filtering.

 

 

If there's fiberglass in there, yes that would make it quite dangerous. Chlorates are notoriously friction-sensitive and basically powdered glass is a near-ideal substance to enhance friction.

 

So crushed-up Solidox would definitely be even more friction sensitive than neat chlorate mixes. I can see it now, pressing it into a tube would be like striking a match, all those hard crystals rubbing past each other with chlorate mix in between.

 

No wonder I heard such bad stories about Solidox, with the fiberglass it makes sense.

[Richtee]

Impure, yes, but can be extracted with water fairly easliy by

 

No wonder I heard such bad stories about Solidox, with the fiberglass it makes sense.

 

Dude..it gets better. They have a "Strike Anywhere" button on the top of them...LOL! Gotta be a Phosphorus/sulfer comp I'd think!

[Richtee]

Actually, now that it's brought back up, I did have 5g left. Mixed it 3-1 with benz, and will dampen and screen. Vid shall be posted.

 

Might as well get rid of it :{)

[Richtee]

Actually, now that it's brought back up, I did have 5g left. Mixed it 3-1 with benz, and will dampen and screen. Vid shall be posted.

 

Might as well get rid of it  :{)

OK some test vids. Mixture was 3:1 chlorate:benzoate, dampeded then granulated about 20 mesh.

 

Burn test:

 

Burn test

 

Burst charge test :{)

 

Burst test

[Mumbles]

I don't think the chlorate whistle granules could pop like a dragon egg. Cplmac did a burn test of them. They did chirp very loudly when lit in the open. Might make an interesting effect if it could be reproduced at the center of a star. "Shimmering white glitter to ruby red, to squeeking"

[Niter]

Your thread rekindled my interest in Sodium chlorate. I have a bit of it lying around and I decided to create a SC equivalent of H3 to see how that would fare.

 

Sodium chlorate.......7

Charcoal..................3

 

After a short diapering I tested some of the composition as a loose powder by means of a visco.

 

I can tell you: it burned faster than your whistle pulverone! It really surprised me, I had used fairly coarse BBQ charcoal for this test batch (only been in the coffee grinder for 20 seconds) and yet it burned like decent ball-milled meal powder, two 1gm amounts and a 3gm one both puffed out of existence, and this after barely 5 minutes of diapering.

 

If I were to make a pulverone of it and do a bit better job than I have now, I think it would cleanly outperform the benzoate whistle you made, which is odd I think.

 

Are you sure you purified your chlorate well?

[Richtee]

Are you sure you purified your chlorate well?

 

Huh interesting... Umm..well, all I can say is it was white. No glass or any dark flecks, and well powdered. I have no means of determining it's actual purity. Seeing it came from Solidox, and the only ingredient listed is S.C. it may not have been pure?

[Flying dutchman]

So i have tried chlorate whithle mix,it's pretty fast.

my ratio were 7:3 potassium chlorate-sodium benzoate

After wetting the mix with plenty of water:

Edited August 10, 2008 by Flying dutchman

[Richtee]

Not wanting to start a new thread... but concerning chlorates..in particular the soduim variety... Why is/was chlorate so heavily used in star comps? Is it's oxidizing potential all that much greater than per?

 

And I tried the S. chlorate/sulfur mix... could not get anything out of it as far as friction/impact ignition. The preferred is potassium?

 

I wish I knew more in the chem vein, but then again, I have a resource like AmPy here :{) thank you for any elucidation upon this topic!

 

PS..I saw no point in tossing about 200 g worth of the S.C. contained in the Solidox I had left, so I extracted it.

[FREAKYDUTCHMEN]

I like chlorate more than perc in most colored starcomps because it gives a better color.

I was told it's because chlorate also works a chlorine donor, and jeah I know perc does have chlorine to, but don't know why it doesn't take a roll in the color of the flame. Chlorate also burns less hot than perc does, so that to would be a reason for a better color.

Potassiumchlorate is about 6 times cheaper (for me), and when you'd like to make more than 50 shells a year it'll save a lot of money.

It also ignites a lot better then perc compositions does.

 

For example, maltese shell builders use chlorate stars and even prime them with blackpowder. It doesn't ignites spontaniously, there is always a reason for it. Just threat the stuff VERY gently (as always in pyro).

 

Here is a little whistle insert, just a little test for using it in a 4" mine in the future.

Edited August 17, 2008 by FREAKYDUTCHMEN

[Mumbles]

Chlorate was originally prefered for economic reasons. From reading about the cells and stuff, it's obvious chlorate is much easier to prepare. This was the case for a long long time. It was the prefered color material well into the late 70's or 80's I'd say. When the costs became better, in most cases perchlorate was switched to for an increase in safety. One less incompatibility to worry about. When making several hundred pound batches, any little bit of safety, even if only in your mind, helps.

 

For the most part it has been phased out. Certain applications still require chlorate, such as colored smokes and some other specialty things. I don't know if it's true, but after a series of accidents I've heard some Maltese manufacturing facilities are starting to switch over.

 

I can't say I agree with the better color statement. Just as saturated colors can be made with perchlorates. A a lot of the old commercial chlorate formulas are available freely, while most of the best perchlorate colors are still under wraps. Ruby Red MgAl and Emerald green are both released commercial formulas for instance. The ones given in Shimizu and Lancaster and the like are examples of compositions but are far from the best. Chlorate is more suited for blues and purples were lower flame temperatures are required. I don't think it has as much to do with chlorine donation, as flame temperature. Perchlorate burns hotter and gives up it's oxygen less easily. The forumals are generally overloaded with chlorine to ensure the formation of the color producing species over oxides or hydroxides in the flame which tend to give undesired colors. It also cools the flame a bit. There is a complex interaction going on here, that would be hard to sum up in a single set of statements.

 

Some countries also have regulations against using chlorate, or chlorate/sulfur mixtures in commercial products so this may also play a role in it's switch.

[Richtee]

Thanks guys. Interesting. I was kind of secretly hoping to make an "exploding rock" a'la the Skylighter semi-tutorial. But sodium C and sulfur are boooooring. Within 10 min of mixing anyway. And the colored star mystique with chlorates thing. Sooo if should I make a star comp.. coat with NC, then another coat to bind a prime is cool? Edited August 18, 2008 by Richtee