I got my rocket tools!

[KinneticEnergy]

Does anyone have small rocket tooling demensions i could use? they need to be easily understood by a machinist, and have little to no taper. The rockets I need to build should be within 1/4" - 3/4" . Being around 3 inches long. The fuel is going to be Bp 74:14:12, and it would be great if the rocket would be capable of eventually lifting a small payload, and being fast without one.

 

 

I saw moonshots tooling, and they looked perfect for my uses. So if he could give me the blueprints for his tooling for turning on a lathe, that would be great! The more info the better.

 

Thanks.

 

P.S Constructive criticism is happily accepted

 

 

 

UPDATE: I have finally had my rocket tools built! Check out my post on page 2 for pictures!

[Arthur]

Please dont expect one size of tooling to satify your needs! You will want a bigger rocket too!

 

Once you fix the dimensions you will have to fine tune the performance by changes in the composition. Most rocketeers seem to have a CATO or two during testing.

[KinneticEnergy]

I can make larger rockets with a drill fine, it's just that it would make the smaller bottle rockets allot easier if i had tooling.

 

And if i have dimensions for a small set, I can always multiply them for larger ones.

[Arthur]

Finding the right dimensions has been a circular process for some. Change the comp and the nozzle needs changing, or the core needs changing. these are part of the tool design.

[Frozentech]

Pyrotechnics by Alexander Hardt has the best table of dimensions that I know of.

[lnstantkarma]

I'm making tooling for stinger missals (spin stabilized rockets) and the only thing I'm not sure on is how deep to make the core. I was thinking 2 in at most because my tubes are 3in long, actually probably less than 2in, whats the core for anyway? Just igniting right?

There are other things too but I'm not worried about them like the nozzle (i can just start with a big one and go smaller) but if the inner diameter of my rocket is .75in should i start with a nozzle of .25in?

[KinneticEnergy]

I'm not asking for a good nozzle size, I am asking for a blueprint to make tooling...

 

I don't know anything about stingers, or any other type of ssr.

 

And, a core is not just for igniting, it is a method used to make the fuel burn with more surface area, allowing for much greater thrust.

[Mumbles]

You might get a bit further actually doing some research yourself instead of asking others to do a reasonably hefty job for you. Blue prints for rocket tooling are not standard issue items. A few sources of the info have been given. Just because you choose not to exercise those options and make your own diagrams doesn't mean we will.

 

You are going to need to tune the fuel to the rockets. The fuel as given is quite traditionally an endburning type of formula. Standard cored rockets with more or less straight BP will cato.

 

 

 

 

Now, the stingers. The core is usually around half the length of the tube, so about inch and a half. It may need to be varied to tune. The core is to provide initial upward thrust. If you have ever seen end burning rockets, they tend to take off rather lazily, but provide their thrust over a longer period of time. The core gives a jolt to get it up and flying. Anyway, stingers are side fused. The vent is lit, and it spins around on the launch spindle(normally a nail or so), and when it hits the inner core, it takes off vertically and spins making a corkscrew on the way up.

 

A nozzle of .25" is not a bad starting point. You may want to go a bit larger and start with 3/8" or 5/16" if you are planning to move down in size to tune.

[KinneticEnergy]

Jeez mumbles, didn't mean to get you mad or anything.(scared you might ban me )

 

On the subject of stingers, I don't see any use for them myself, so i chose not to read much about them. I do know HOW to build one, but don't find them of any interest, and have never built one.

 

As for the tooling issue; I cannot experiment with tooling demensions, because I don't own a lathe. I am going to have to pay a machinist to build the tools for me. So that leaves me with no chance to screw anything up. I have noticed that some people here have allot more knowledge than I have about making tooling, so I didn't think it would be too hard for them to tell me how they made theirs. I have to buy everything myself, and at 15 it's not easy, so I don't have the money to buy a book for one simple answer.

 

I'm sorry if I sounded rude.

[lnstantkarma]

Today I looked at a rocket motor in my metals class and I set a ratio with the measurements I took from it to my .75in engine(the model was .5in).

It's cool because all the dimensions match up with what you were saying, the core is half the length of the engine, and the nozzle is .3in, and I don't know if I will make the nozzle flat or curved in like the model engines.

 

As for Kinnetic Energy you should wait till you can take a shop class in high school, you can make all the tools you need. Thats if you teacher doesn't care like mine.

[KinneticEnergy]

I'm homeschooled, so I don't have access to a lathe( I'm a freshman btw).

But I might switch to a public high school next year.

[lnstantkarma]

Well if I didn't have access to anything I would probably save up and buy the tools. They're about $70 on a good day, and better than anything I could make. You really need a job or some source of income if you want to be successful. It's so frustrating when you have to work with crap you scrounged up. If you live in town you might be able to get a job without needing a car. I'm a senior in high school and I work at subway, make $360 a month(about 15 hrs a week) and after stuff that leaves me with about $60 for my pyrotechnic fund. (maybe you have a birthday soon?)

What I'm trying to say is; if you budget your money carefully you can buy all the important things you need. Especially since you don't pay for food or rent.

 

Oh and stingers are awesome, no fins or sticks or helicopters like every other one, elegant in my opinion, and they can still carry a small header. I've never been interested in any other kind of rocket.

[FrankRizzo]

Paying a machinist to make one-off tooling is going to be expensive. Your best bet is to buy standard sized tooling from Greg Boyd over at PyroTooling.com, or spend a few more bucks and email Rich Wolter (wolterpyrotools.com) about his taper pin rocket tooling. The advantage of the taper pin is that *when* (not if) you bend your spindles, they can be easily replaced with taper pin stock bought from McMaster Carr or similar.

 

This particular set was made by Steve Hall:

 

http://www.pyrobin.com/files/103_0379.jpg

[Bonny]

Once you get diminsions, another thing you could try is if you have a college or trade school or whatever nearby, see if a student can do the machining at a lower cost...beer money or something.

[KinneticEnergy]

Well, the machinist I'm "hiring" is retired, and was a great friend to the dad of a friend of mine. I was talking to my friend, and he said that this guy could help. So I gave him an email, and explained how I heard about him. He responded to the email, and said he could do it for $25. Thats talking about 1lb tooling! So he told me to email him with detailed blueprint of what needs to be done, and he will do it.

 

 

About the job; I have a very nice good paying job(in my opinion).

I work once every two weeks cleaning up after geese, it takes me about 35 minuets of actual work. The lady I work for is old, so it takes her a while to walk around. And she does talk quite a bit, but I don't mind, she's really wise. The pay is $35 on a normal day, and $40 when raining. So, the pay is fine, but my mom takes a fair bit of it for college funds.

 

Leaving me with $11 bucks a week.

In 10 months I can get a job, and by then ill have a car.

[TheSidewinder]

If he's willing to make you a good set of tooling for $25, you struck the jackpot!

 

And given that he's retired, I'll bet he'd be willing to tell (or teach) you anything about machining you'd care to know.

 

Old craftsmen like that are usually eager to see youngsters follow in their footsteps.

 

I know of only one source of actual blueprints: Dave Sleeter's book. Pricey, but there are dozens of pages of blueprints for rocket tooling, from small to HUGE. Well worth the money. If you have any interest in rocketry, be it Pyrotechnic or Amateur, that's a "must buy" book.

[Mumbles]

It would be a lot easier if you mentioned what kind of rocket you wanted to make. There are no less than 4 or 5 types of black powder rockets.

 

End Burner

Core burner

Nozzleless

Stinger

Hybrid

 

There are also modified forms, such as what Tom Rebenclau uses.

[KinneticEnergy]

Core burner, Black powder 74:14:12.

[FrankRizzo]

That mix will be too hot for a core burner. User something around 60:30:10.

[Bonny]

Core burner, Black powder 74:14:12.

Isn't that the PGI lift ratio? Probably way too fast...just asking for CATO.

[moonshot]

Hey kinnetic here are the specs for my tooling for 3/8" ID 4" long core burners with a 1/8" ID nozzle. All pieces made from 3/8" brass round stock.

Spindle. here is a pic.

http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m314/di...07/S3010735.jpg

You should be able to get the finished dimensions from the picture. Angle on spindle base is 30 degrees. Base of spindle taper is 1/8". I just hand file a slight taper to the tip. polish with 400 grit sand paper. Cross hole is 3/16".

Rammers are 5" long

#1 center drilled 3/16 dia. 3 1/2" deep with 30 degree bevel on drilled end.

#2 " " " " " " 90 degree flat end

#3 solid 3/8" brass round stock 5" long.

The base that holds the spindle can be wood or metal with a 3/8" hole drilled to a depth of 1/2".

If you go to the tutorial section and look at my tutorial on rolling tubes with brown paper bags it will show you the exact way to roll a tube for this size tooling. Also if you want to build a header check out the paper cone cup tutorial on page 2. I hope this helps. PM me if you have more questions.

[KinneticEnergy]

Just modified a print, here's what it looked like before:

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/Bigelbach/BPtools.jpg

 

And after:

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p88/Bigelbach/BPtools2.jpg

[nick2354]

I am thinking about making some core burning rocket tooling, and I was just wondering how important are the tapers, because I have seen rocket tooling without them?

[Mumbles]

The tapers mainly facilitate the removal of the motor at the end. They are not neccesary for performance or anything like that as far as I know. You will have a hell of a time trying to get a finished motor off the tooling without the taper. As far as the tapers on the nozzle, they do help performance.

 

BTW, kineticenergy. I'd suggest, if it's not too late, to at least get 2 cored rammers. Using only one, I can almost guarantee you will cock and split many tubes(likely the spindle as well). I'd also suggest getting a longer core in the first rammer, something like 2". You want a buffer area for safety concerns, so you don't pinch fuel against the top of the spindle

[moonshot]

Both of those plans will work to make good rocket motors. Your scaled plan for 3/8" ID motors will work well using a 4" long tube. The 4" tube will allow you to ram enough propellant above the top of the spindle so you won't need to add a delay comp. You do need some taper on the spindle to make it release from the core after ramming the motor. A slow twist should be all it takes to release the spindle. I have rammed motors using only two rammers on these smaller rockets, but you have to make sure you have rammed comp to a point ABOVE the tip of the spindle before using the blunt rammer. These smaller motors are fast and fun to make and will lift headers up to 50 grams easily. Use a slow propellant mix to start like 60/30/10. Mumbles is right about drilling the hollow rammers deeper. Also I don't think you need the relief cut on the rammers. Anyway let us know about your progress and get some vids of your launches.