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AP/Hexamine Blue


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#21 Miech

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Posted 03 November 2008 - 03:23 PM

That works perfectly fine. I've currently a 100 gram batch of this composition drying with parlon as chlorine donor. The composition seems to be a bit deep blue purple-ish however, but I think it is the case when using saran.
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#22 xxxjanusxxx

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 06:54 AM

That works perfectly fine. I've currently a 100 gram batch of this composition drying with parlon as chlorine donor. The composition seems to be a bit deep blue purple-ish however, but I think it is the case when using saran.


Did you add a bit extra parlon? Saran has more Cl--ions to give I believe.
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#23 Miech

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 07:06 AM

I just substituted it 1:1, and that works well.
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#24 xxxjanusxxx

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Posted 04 November 2008 - 07:10 AM

I just substituted it 1:1, and that works well.


Thank you! Hopefully it's possible for us to make a batch in the near future, because we have a lot to do before 31 december.
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#25 xxxjanusxxx

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 08:10 AM

Sorry for the double post, but I have a question.

Is it possible to use CuOCl instead of CuO and have a better result? I want to use parlon instead of saran, could the CuOCl compensate?

Edited by xxxjanusxxx, 05 November 2008 - 08:15 AM.

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#26 Mumbles

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 11:54 AM

I don't know if it'd be neccesary. Replacing colorants is a little harder to give advice for over replacing chlorine donors. If it were metal fueled, I'd say go for it, but being that it's organic, I'm unsure how much of a difference it would make. Perhaps replace one variable at a time. A few small tests should be able to give you an idea how well they'd work.

I personally think you'd be fine with both substitutions, but only testing will tell.
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#27 Richtee

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 12:07 PM

Sorry for the double post, but I have a question.

Is it possible to use CuOCl instead of CuO and have a better result? I want to use parlon instead of saran, could the CuOCl compensate?


I dunno about the copper swaps... I DO have both...but I just finished a batch of the CuO using all parlon. It's a BEAUTIFUL blue...as a powder. Waiting on the dried stars now.
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#28 qwezxc12

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 12:59 PM

Sorry for the double post, but I have a question.

Is it possible to use CuOCl instead of CuO and have a better result? I want to use parlon instead of saran, could the CuOCl compensate?


When I was working up this formula, I never tried using Copper Oxychloride primarily because of cost, as it's easily 50% more than CuO sourced from ceramic suppliers; the added expense didn't make sense given the relatively lower cost of Chlorine donors. I did try Copper Carbonate, though and opted not to use it - I prefer the 'deeper' hue (to my eyes, anyway) made by the Copper Oxide.

Likewise, I had no motivation to stray from Saran (which can be had for <$5/lb) to Parlon which is 1) More costly, 2) Chinese, and therefore suspect purity-wise 3) Typically comprises a lower % of available Chlorine, and 4) Also typically is full of larger mesh shit that you need to screen out if you plan on rolling this comp. I save my Parlon for comps that absolutely require its properties, like AP Go-getter formulas.

That said, use what you have, make substitutions one at a time, and keep good notes. Let us know how it turns out. Good luck :)
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#29 Mumbles

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 03:59 PM

You must have gotten the CuO before the giant price hike. For me they are both nearly on par now in terms of cost right now. About $9 for CuO or $10 for CuOCl. I've still not tried any blue formula using CuOCl, only whistle catalyst up to now. I have a few kilos mixed, just not made into stars yet.
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#30 Miech

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 06:11 PM

If you want to have a (relatively) cheap AP blue formula you could try the following one. It uses solely the present perchlorate ions as chlorine donor, and uses copper carbonate as colorant.

39 Potassium Perchlorate
28 Ammonium Perchlorate
14 Copper Carbonate
14 Red Gum
05 Dextrin

It has virtually the same saturation and brightness as the AP/Hex formula, but is half the price for me. I made pumped stars of it, but rolling might be possible as well as cutting it.
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#31 xxxjanusxxx

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 06:14 PM

I wish they weren't that hypocrite here, because the CuOCl I've bought have cost me almost 44$/kg and CuO almost 13$/kg. The CuOCl had to come from a foreign supplier, because our hobby is illegal here and the chemicals used in pyro aren't sold to normal civilians. The prizes you're talking about are very attractive, but it isn't meant to be I think.
Parlon is about 20$/kg where saran is nowhere to be found yet, so it's my only option.

I think that I will try with the CuO, because it's cheaper and we need some testing with AP stars, so we won't mess up with expensive CuOCl in the composition. Richtee said it burs very good, so I belief him.

Edited by xxxjanusxxx, 05 November 2008 - 06:17 PM.

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#32 tentacles

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 08:59 PM

Janus: it's not too difficult to make CuOCl - Here's an old post from rec.pyro:
"
Thought I'd throw this out here:

Copper oxychloride, better called copper hydroxychloride or basic copper
chloride, Cu(OH,Cl)2, is generally made by neutralizing a strong solution
of copper chloride. The process is simple and needs very little attention.
If you have a chemical bent like I do, you may be interested in making your
own.

Place scrap copper metal into a plastic bucket. Bare copper wire and strap
is ideal. If it's enamelled or insulated, burn it off first with a torch.
(Beware the fumes if the insulation is PVC. It's better to strip PVC
instead.) Cover with 15% hydrochloric acid. (Muriatic acid, found at the
hardware store, is 31.45%. Dilute 50% with water.) The solution will
immediately turn green, as some copper dissolves in the acid. Since copper
is a noble metal, it will not dissolve very quickly. The trick is to
expose the solution to oxygen, oxidizing the copper and bringing it into
solution. An aquarium bubbler will speed this process. (Be sure to use
plastic parts, which won't react with the string acid! A submerged pump
motor will probably not last long.)

Over time, the solution will become deep green or brown and much of the
copper will have dissolved. At this point, you have a strong solution of
copper chloride. You are ready to make the oxychloride.
You can also start with copper chloride (usually CuCl2.2H2O, a light blue
salt) dissolved in water at this point.

I). By neutralization:
Remove the remaining metal from the corroding bucket and bubble air until
the solution is a bright green color. Add a base, such as sodium hydroxide
(dissolve in water first), carbonate or bicarbonate, to the nearly-neutral
copper chloride solution. I recommend sodium bicarbonate, a mild base.
Neutralize in a large bucket because a lot of foam will be produced.
Pastel green copper oxychloride will precipitate. Wash and dry the
product. Caution: sodium hydroxide is a strong base and, if you add too
much, may strip chloride from the product.

This product should be stable in boiling water, whereas pastel blue copper
hydroxide will decompose to black copper oxide. Copper hydroxide is
produced when a solution of copper with little chloride (a dilute copper
chloride solution, or any strength of copper sulfate or nitrate) is
neutralized.

II). By oxidation:
Continue bubbling the solution over copper metal. The metal will continue
to corrode, while as the solution oxidizes, it will produce copper
oxychloride. After some time, stir up the suspension, strain out the
metal, continue bubbling the solution and let the copper oxychloride
settle. Collect the precipitate, wash it repeatedly with water, then dry.
The rinse water will contain dilute copper chloride which can be
concentrated by evaporation and returned to the corroding bucket.

You can continue the corrosion process until the solution has almost no
copper left in it. At this point, you can add acid and start back at the
beginning.

A bubbler is not necessary, but the process is very slow without. The
pound of copper oxychloride I recently advertized (which has been claimed,
thanks!) took months to form, in a milk jug sized bucket. But what can I
say, I just love copper so much that I love to torture it with a long soak
in acid. ;-)

Tim
"

Just as a note, a splash or two of H2O2 in the acid solution will help dissolve the copper much, much faster.

Edited by tentacles, 05 November 2008 - 09:00 PM.


#33 qwezxc12

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Posted 05 November 2008 - 10:03 PM

You must have gotten the CuO before the giant price hike. For me they are both nearly on par now in terms of cost right now. About $9 for CuO or $10 for CuOCl. I've still not tried any blue formula using CuOCl, only whistle catalyst up to now. I have a few kilos mixed, just not made into stars yet.


Mumbles,

Where are you finding CuOCl for $10/lb? (assuming you're buying 'reasonable' qtys)...I haven't seen it under $12...

As for CuO, Amherst Pottery has it for $5.25/lb, $5/lb in 5lb qtys. and US Pigment and Solar Flare Chems both list it at $6/lb for 1lb qtys., so it can still be had fairly inexpensively.
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#34 Yankie

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Posted 22 November 2008 - 04:11 AM

So does substituting Ammonium Perchlorate for Potassium and tweaking some percentages around make it "my" formula? I didn't think so. But, it isn't "Al's Hexamine Blue", anymore either. So call it whatever you want. It's a nice blue with excellent color saturation.


Well it makes it more yours than Wilbur makes conkling blue his. He changed 9 parts parlon for 4 parts parlon and 5 parts dechlorane, called it his own formula and won a competition with it (Floridas blue star contest or something along those lines)

Man I need some Saran, shipping is just so expensive to Aus...
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#35 Zmuro

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 04:21 AM

This is Wilbur's blue star where dechlorane was subsituted with parlon: Wilbur blue star

Edited by Zmuro, 23 November 2008 - 04:22 AM.


#36 sparksnsky

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Posted 20 April 2009 - 12:33 PM

Hi,

I tested qwezxc12's formula by using parlon instead of saran.
Here is a video of the outcome.



It is a realy nice blue.

#37 AdmiralDonSnider

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Posted 24 April 2009 - 12:38 PM

If you want to have a (relatively) cheap AP blue formula you could try the following one. It uses solely the present perchlorate ions as chlorine donor, and uses copper carbonate as colorant.

39 Potassium Perchlorate
28 Ammonium Perchlorate
14 Copper Carbonate
14 Red Gum
05 Dextrin

It has virtually the same saturation and brightness as the AP/Hex formula, but is half the price for me. I made pumped stars of it, but rolling might be possible as well as cutting it.


Well, I may be using inferior quality chems, but this formula (originally a Lancaster pillbox star) couldnīt match the blue color seen in the first post of this thread. I would be happy if it could, would indeed be a lot cheaper. Has anyone compared the two?

Edited by AdmiralDonSnider, 24 April 2009 - 12:39 PM.


#38 KAP

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Posted 11 July 2009 - 11:03 PM

Thank's for all the hard work in making a nice Blue star, I made wilbur's it was ok. Blessers is nice but it seems weak when bound as cut stars, Way more info here now after looking for a nice blue with AP, I will give copper oxychloride a replacement over the oxide and see what I get. I find binding the stars with NC really speeds up the burn rate.
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