Guanidine Nitrate black powder

[rg19]

Hello, new user here, this is my first post. 

I've spent many years reading about chemistry in general and to some extent the chemistry of fireworks.  I'm relatively new to actually making fireworks, but I have made red gum black powder, a few tube sparklers and even some 1oz rocket motors and will soon be making parlon stars for 1.75" festive balls.  Safety is my top priority, and I have read extensively on the subject long before ever attempting to make any pyrotechnic compositions.  I like to plan ahead and to be fully informed before making something that could potentially hurt me (or others, for that matter), and this is due in part to my previous experience studying chemistry as an amateur (which often involves handling and even preparing some pretty scary stuff).  So that's my background, now on to the main event. 

I've seen some alternate formulas for blackpowder here on the forum and elsewhere, but the one I thought was most intriguing can be found on page 50 of "The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives".  Details are sparse (only a patent is mentioned) but the formula calls for "Potassium Nitrate 40 to 60 per cent, Guanidine Nitrate 48 to 24 per cent, and charcoal 12 to 16 per cent."

Knowing absolutely nothing about this proposed "blasting powder", I wonder if anyone else has ever come across this or a similar composition, let alone tried it.  I ask because I do have the materials to make it, and I figured I might try the red gum process of screening and granulating the composition just like black powder.  However, I am hesitant to experiment without having a good idea of what to expect in terms of sensitivity or power compared to traditional black powder.

I find it appealing as a sulfur-free composition that may even produce less smoke than traditional black powder, and because I'm not interested in making exotic rocket fuels I don't know what else to do with the Guanidine Nitrate.  I'm even considering the potential of using it for low smoke fountains, if that's even possible considering the lower burning temperature.

The intended use is for lifting and bursting charges in aerial shells since I don't want to waste an otherwise useful material.

Edited June 19 by rg19

[rg19]

Alright, so I tried making two 10g batches using the screen mixing method (100 mesh) and granulated with 3% red gum alcohol solution as the binder, basically following the same process for black powder.  I used the formula 4:4.8:1.2 KNO3/GN/Charcoal.

 

Trying to light an open pile of dried granules with a blow torch was not very promising as the grains seemed to be too stubborn to ignite and required constant contact with the flame to keep them burning.  It seemed to just melt and smolder.  Testing another 10g batch in a sealed paper tube allowed the grains to keep burning but produced a sort of smoke bomb effect: the granules simply smoldered for several seconds like a novelty smoke ball.

 

Clearly this process and formula is not useful for making a lift or burst charge for shells as was intended, but it does inspire further experiments to make slow burning compositions for delays and possibly colored torches.

[Carbon796]

Since it's a blasting powder . . . Should probably be using a blasting cap to set it off with.

Might want to also look into getting a rock drill . . .

The formula that you used, in contrast to the patent " formula " is severely fuel starved.

Screen mixing alone, with some sub-par hardwoods charcoal. Is also not going to be helping you any.

GN is useful in Blues & Strobes.

Edited August 14 by Carbon796

[Richtee]

But ya gotta love bat shit

[Richtee]

FYI

[rg19]

It was 12% charcoal by mass, so the lower end of what is on that chart in terms of fuel and right at the boundary of the patent formula (40% KNO3, 48% GN, 12% Charcoal).  However, I was under the (possibly false) impression that it didn't need blasting caps to work properly.  Rather I thought it would simply behave like good ol' black powder.  I haven't read the patent and don't even know if I could find it since it's quite old and originated in Germany, but I'm sure it might reveal why this didn't work as I thought it would.  And I did use plain old mixed hardwood air float for this, which maybe wasn't the best idea...

I have seen some star formulas that use GN, but I think all of them used Ammonium Perchlorate and were not the sort of thing I wanted to experiment with because of that.. Still, I might try tinkering with them if it will make use of this stuff.

Edited August 24 by rg19
Errors in the percentages

[Carbon796]

Your best bet, will be use practices that align it more. With a Quality BP. If you want or hope for it to behave more like a quality BP. Most times with patent information. It's for a window/range. Both above and below the ideal patented formula. So you just need to read between the lines more . . . , employ some common sense techniques. And, you'll probably be alot closer.

[rg19]

That does make sense, but in all honesty I'm not sure I want to keep pursuing this particular project.  It was a passing curiosity, and there are plenty of other powders for bursting 2" shells with more power than my screen mixed BP.  With a ball mill I could make much better black powder for lift too.  

I've found some blue star and strobe formulas that could make use of the GN, though I'm going to hold off on testing them for a while since I don't have any AP and don't know what primes to use yet.  But that's a topic for another thread.

[Arthur]

When I first started with fireworks it was understood that first one needed good BP in several mesh cuts. Likely you will fail with ball shells (and cylinder shells) if your simple powder is inadequate.

Added;

There are many tests for BP the simplest test being the white paper test, ignite a trail of powder on a sheet of white paper really good BP burns before the paper is scorched, bad BP burns holes in the paper.

Edited August 25 by Arthur

[rg19]

I did the paper test with my 4FA red gum screen mixed BP and found that it does leave a lot of smoldering pinholes that slowly expand to form one large hole...  I used air float charcoal from Skylighter.

I've also made 2" ball shells and 1" ID canister shells with the 6FA grains as the burst charge.  Their performance leaves me wanting since the breaks are smaller than they should be, and with only three layers of pasting on the balls the report was more like a weak pop rather than a good bang.  Six layers made more noise but still the breaks could be a fair bit larger.

A ball mill is definitely on my wishlist, but to be fair I'm not even sure what to expect for shells of this size using only black powder for the burst. 

As lifting powder, the 4FA grains are not the best at lifting 45g shells with 7g of lift, and it's more of a "foof" sound rather than a thump.  My 4oz core burner rockets perform well enough lifting the same shells with fuel made from the same materials (55% KNO3, 21% air float, 10% 80 mesh charcoal, 14% sulfur), but then those too could be improved.

Edited August 25 by rg19

[Carbon796]

Most smaller shells ( even with straight  granulated BP for burst ) will require the addition of a booster. For good performance. 

You also need to use a better,BP quality, soft wood charcoal. 

The mixed hardwoods charcoals  ( commercial AF ) are better suited to spark/low impulse fuel type formulas.

[rg19]

I have been experimenting with boosters with some promising results, but it's a work in progress. 

As for charcoal, maybe air float for nozzled core burner rockets and pine for granulated lift/burst, preferably ball milled for proper performance?

[Carbon796]

Commercial AF is what is traditionally used for nozzled core burners. Usually designated as RF ( rocket fuel ). A screen mixed formula.

Pine also falls into the spark, low impulse fuel category.

Easter red cedar, paulownia, willow & balsa would be charcoal's to look into.

A proper ballmill is almost required. For quality BP production.

Edited August 25 by Carbon796

[rg19]

Huh, I thought pine was considered hotter...  I'll definitely try one of the others when I get a mill, probably willow.

[Mumbles]

The topic of wood sources for charcoal is a complicated one. There are a million of different avenues to potentially pursue. The most important part is finding something that works for you and your process.

Specific variety aside, generally what you're looking for is a clean/non-sappy generally lightweight wood. The popular ones like willow, paulownia, eastern red cedar, poplar, aspen, etc. all fall into this category. My best advice would be to go with something tried and true to get your process dialed in. After that, experiment with what's available and find what works for you.

To address your question more directly, not all pine species are created equally. I've heard some reports of people using white pine for decent black powder. On the contrary, something that is denser and more sticky like yellow pine generally is great for sparks, but not for speed. Some of the finer specifics like this can make wholesale characterization difficult.

[rg19]

Thanks for clearing that up, Mumbles.  I do have a bunch of old white pine barn beams around here and have wondered how it differs from yellow pine, but have never heard of anyone using it for charcoal up to this point. 

Of course making my own charcoal is not something I want to get into so soon, and without a ball mill it seems there's little point.  I'll stick with the tried and true for now before wandering off on wild experiments again.

Edited August 26 by rg19

[Carbon796]

If you use a known quality product. You're not embarking out on wild experiments. You are just making better stuff. 

If you're in the US. It's pretty simple, and cheap to build a decent working HF ball mill. One of my club members, at one time. Would basically run one or two of those 24/7.  They are not the fastest or most efficient. But, they do work. And, can make quality BP, with quality materials and media.

Edited August 29 by Carbon796

[rg19]

The wild experiment was trying to make a black powder substitute from a formula published in a book from the 1940s, knowing virtually nothing aside from a range of percentages for each component...  Looking back I really didn't have high hopes of it working, but curiosity got the best of me.

Everything else I've done has been in accordance with tried and tested procedures posted on Skylighter, usually with acceptable results which encourages further progress in learning and getting proper tools to make things better next time.  I'm far from discouraged and am simply more motivated to improve.

[Crazy Swede]

Guanidinium nitrate is a net fuel and cannot be added to ordinary pyrotechnic mixtures to increase their effect.

It can be used as a gas generating coolant in smoke and strobe mixtures respectively. Other than that its main application is in old fashioned propellants for hobby rocket motors and air bags.

[Pyroboy]

I think that Guanidiniumnitrate is to expensive to use in plain blackpowder for lift. At least where I come from it is quite expensive compared to KNO3, charcoal and sulfur. It is better used for some nice effects. I used it (as you mentioned in your first post) for fountains with no to minimal smoke. It is worth it for this kind of effect.

 

For your charcoal and blackpowder questions: Mumble already said there are several trees or bushes that give good charcoal. it really depends on where you are from, what plants are available. If you collect wood for making charcoal it is best to take only dead branches that has been deteriorated for severeal years. The best powder charcoal you get from wood that has deteriorated so much, that it brittles between when you squeeze it. That sort of wood weights almost nothing and the charcoal can be grinded very easy.

For a ballmill you could use some sort of polisher/ tumbler like this: AliExpress Tumbler

I would not mill blackpowder, but you can mill components. In my opinion this is the safest way to get good blackpowder.

   - Comp. 1: 50% Sulfur, 50% Charcoal (milled for several hours to get a good mixture)

   - Comp. 2: 93,75% KNO3, 6,25% Charcoal (milled for several hours)

Then you can just mix (without milling medium) in ratio 20% Comp. 1 and 80% Comp. 2. For pulverone just add 3% - 5% Dextrin and damped with water/alcohol (75%/25%) and granulate through sieve or cheese grater.

Or you can use the CIA method (mixed in warm water and then poured into cold etanole). Then granulate as mentioned above.

[rellim]

Debunking a lot of the myths surrounding BP charcoal.

 

[Pyroboy]

Well Paper is mostly pure cellulose and thats what your going for in wood for good powder charcoal. Thats why I said use deteriorated wood, that is mostly cellulose. The stuff lying around for two or three years got most salts washed out and most of the resins are decomposed.

Like this: decomposed wood

If you can crush the wood with your hand and it feels really light, thats the best wood you can use, because it is mostly cellulose!

 

By the way, straw gives really good charchoal for black powder. But due to its conent of silicates the product is much more sensitive to friction than blackpowder made with wood charcoal.

Edited September 9 by Pyroboy