BingBong Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 I don't have an oven but I need some dextrin to make black match. Can I just use hot water to dissolve the corn starch before putting it in the black powder slurry? Or alternatively, just boil the flour and then add it to the slurry? What are my options? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroGb Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 So I am still new at this so don’t just take my advice at face value. But I have had similar issues in my testing I could not get flour past stars to work at all it just makes a messy un pumpable paste that gets on everything. now there may be better ways to get it to work but I have not found them. Now before I say this the quality of the dextrin you get from this is prety horrendous compared to the real stuff but, if you have a pan with a lid you can slow cook the corn starch in a pan, the slower and lower the better until golden brown it’s basically the same presses just less effective and easier to accomplish, I used this in my stars and was able to get something that would fall apart if squeezed but would stay together alright. Hope this helps🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmjlab Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 You can use corn starch the same way laundry starch is used to make B.P. slurry and make respectable match. (Laundry Starch and Corn Starch for cooking are supposedly the same thing according to several people, one of which who got the company to confirm they were the same). Using wheat paste (boiled flour paste) with stars works great for Aluminum stars especially (that have that greasy coating, like Bright Al), provided you use some dextrin as well. The wheat paste helps with forming the loaf to cut stars, the dextrin works to make them rick hard once dry (dextrin in solution works best for this in my experience, so it isn't competing with moisture in the boiled flour paste, in order to activate). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmjlab Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 When making black match with starch, you prepare the starch according to Argo laundry starch (Google the directions from Argo), then add to your B.P. to a yogurt consistency if using the "hank method), then proceed as usual to make black match that won't get limp and flimsy when it is humid out (like dextrin black match does). I should also add that the wheat paste and dextrin use for greasy Al stars is not my original idea. It comes from an old timer on FW.com Mike Swisher (to give credit where credit is due). The laundry starch idea is not my idea either, Ned Gorski has a YouTube video on the process, whom he learned from an older old timer Chuck Tengue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumber Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 9 hours ago, BingBong said: I don't have an oven but I need some dextrin to make black match. Can I just use hot water to dissolve the corn starch before putting it in the black powder slurry? Or alternatively, just boil the flour and then add it to the slurry? What are my options? Go and purchase gum arabic. Dextrin in inferior for making black match. It would be fine for stars and in other formulations. Match made with gum arabic is very flexible in handling and its stiff tooo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulphurstan Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 On 1/6/2024 at 4:54 AM, Zumber said: Go and purchase gum arabic In which proportion do you add gum arabicum to the meal, for the black match slurry? 1-2% like dextrin? Thanx in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmjlab Posted January 7 Share Posted January 7 (edited) Gum Arabic did not work well in 1-2% for me, it wasn't enough binder to make stiff match leaving it soft and easily bendable. I don't know the perfect proportion, but I will try 5% next time Edited January 7 by cmjlab Specified that gum Arabic didn't work well FOR ME, in those proportions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumber Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 7 hours ago, cmjlab said: Gum Arabic did not work well in 1-2% for me, it wasn't enough binder to make stiff match leaving it soft and easily bendable. I don't know the perfect proportion, but I will try 5% next time I have been making black match with dextrin since 18 years but every time it was not that stiff and readily inserted into paper tubes and powders falling problem too. But last 5 years( as written in shimizu FAST book and Lancasters Book) I am using gum arabic and It turns out pretty well my match is stiff like essence stick. It easily insearted into paper tube. Its flexible to be used as crossmatch for spolette etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumber Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 7 hours ago, Sulphurstan said: In which proportion do you add gum arabicum to the meal, for the black match slurry? 1-2% like dextrin? Thanx in advance! Here is discussion I have written entire process i used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmjlab Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Yeah thanks for finding that, I thought I had talked about it before. My 1.5% Gum Arabic didn't turn out well, and I haven't tried a higher concentration yet. I still would like to try it. I will say though, I've used the boiled starch (Argo Laundry Starch) and it works well also. It makes good stiff black match that doesn't flake when crumpled up, and fees into match pipe well. But as always in pyro, there's lot's of ways to accomplish the same thing. I will have to try the Gum Arabic for my next batch of black match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumber Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroGb Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I was wondering, I made black match and it turned out pretty good but what is a good amount of dextrin for a 50 gram batch of bp I’m not sure if it wasn’t as stif as it should/could be or what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulphurstan Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 14 hours ago, Zumber said: ere is discussion I have written entire process i used. Thank you. I read the thread, and found my answers!👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumber Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 13 hours ago, PyroGb said: I was wondering, I made black match and it turned out pretty good but what is a good amount of dextrin for a 50 gram batch of bp I’m not sure if it wasn’t as stif as it should/could be or what. Binder affects burn rate so for stars 5 to 6 percent dextrin is enough (for 100 gram star composition 5 gram dextrin is sufficient) As black match (which is next used as a quick match) 2 percent binder should be used more than that can affect burn rate. So for 100 gram black powder 2 gram dextrin should be used. But I have bad experience with dextrin for black /quick match. Gum arabic is excellent next CMC (I have not made yet with CMC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroGb Posted January 9 Share Posted January 9 K thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmjlab Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 I've never heard of anyone using just CMC for blackmatch. Have you tried it? I've definitely heard of adding 1% to your B.P. slurry with Dextrin, Gum Arabic, and Starch to help keep the B.P. in suspension, but I've not needed to since I don't have a match machine. Btw - have you tried starch for B.M.? Make you a deal, I'll try your method id you try mine!?! 😁 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumber Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 27 minutes ago, cmjlab said: I've never heard of anyone using just CMC for blackmatch. Have you tried it? I've definitely heard of adding 1% to your B.P. slurry with Dextrin, Gum Arabic, and Starch to help keep the B.P. in suspension, but I've not needed to since I don't have a match machine. Btw - have you tried starch for B.M.? Make you a deal, I'll try your method id you try mine!?! 😁 Nope I havent tried starch for BM. I am limited to dextrin only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmjlab Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 No worries, I was mostly joking. I was also going to use 3% Gum Arabic on my next batch anyways. But you can buy a container of Argo corn starch from the grocery store, doubles as a good Meal-D container when you finish using the starch. It's the same thing as laundry starch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zumber Posted January 10 Share Posted January 10 Oh I thought you were taking about SGRS (soluable glutinous rice starch) Its almost impossible here to get it. I can easily get dextrin. Anyways thank you...😊😊 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroGb Posted January 13 Share Posted January 13 https://www.amazon.com/XPRS-Nutra-Premium-Watercolor-Powdered/dp/B0C15GLWM1/ref=asc_df_B0C15GLWM1/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=663392887338&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15205274056300857064&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1027744&hvtargid=pla-2217108954684&psc=1&mcid=737091e94fc0396e8b21b2c07a9e30d8 Is this the correct stuff cus if so ill definitely buy some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmjlab Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Yep, that's Gum Arabic....super expensive though! PyroChemSource.com / $9.00/lb https://www.pyrochemsource.com/Gum-Arabic_p_54.html FireworksCookBook/Out of Stock/$6.00 lb https://www.fireworkscookbook.com/product/gum-arabic/ Of course their is shipping, so maybe it comes about the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyroGb Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Kk thanks👍 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 You on the right track at least. It costs more, but the gum arabic I've bought from book binding or art supply shops tends to be some of the highest quality I've ever used. You tend to pay for it though. If Pyro Chem Source still has the same material they used to, that stuff is extremely high quality as well for a pretty good price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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