Barium sulfate => Barium nitrate

[PillaDoubleG]

Maybe I just haven't done enough research, but...
Since I can't buy barium nitrate, I'll have to make it myself. My question is, is it possible to turn BaSO4 into BaNO3 without using nitric acid itself? I'm asking this since I watched a video from Cranial Construction in which he makes urea nitrate. Instead of using separated nitric acid, he just takes a solution of HNO3 + KHSO4 (which you get by reacting H2SO4 and KNO3)
and adds in the urea (dissolved in water). If this is possible with barium sulfate, could someone tell me how to calculate the proportions needed?

Thanks in advance. 

[Mumbles]

That won't work for barium sulfate.

[PillaDoubleG]

9 hours ago, Mumbles said:

That won't work for barium sulfate.

I'm guessing that's because barium sulfate reacts with KHSO4, which is no good. But, is it possible to do this type of reaction with a different barium salt? Maybe BaCO3, BaOH and so on?

[AustralianPyromaniac]

Urea nitrate is insoluble, or nearly so, which is basically why it’s possible.

What I think what is happening in that reaction is the bisulphate is a quite strong acid and is able to react in small quantities with the potassium nitrate salt to release small amounts nitric acid into solution.  As nitric acid is formed in the solution, it reacts with the urea to form urea nitrate which crashes out of solution, driving the reaction forward. I do not think that reaction runs to completion at room temp, but I could be wrong on that. These type of reactions are very useful, but something must be insoluble for it to work, normally the desired product. Barium nitrate is highly soluble and no pathway exists based on any sort of reaction like that, even if I am wrong on the mechanism. The reaction will not run to completion, and even if it did, the product will be impossible to separate from the reactants rendering it useless. 
 

Also, barium sulphate is a salt of sulphuric acid. Sulphates do not react with nitric acid because sulphuric acid is stronger than nitric, so it double wouldn’t work, even if the first part worked. If you do want to do a reaction to get the nitrate, which will mean making nitric acid, you need to start with a carbonate/ bicarbonate or hydroxide as you mention. 
 

I thought you decided buy chemicals from that Russian store? If you want to make your own, I’d recommend making barium chloride and then making that into chlorate, rather than running a nitrate based colour system. 

[PillaDoubleG]

6 hours ago, AustralianPyromaniac said:

Urea nitrate is insoluble, or nearly so, which is basically why it’s possible.

What I think what is happening in that reaction is the bisulphate is a quite strong acid and is able to react in small quantities with the potassium nitrate salt to release small amounts nitric acid into solution.  As nitric acid is formed in the solution, it reacts with the urea to form urea nitrate which crashes out of solution, driving the reaction forward. I do not think that reaction runs to completion at room temp, but I could be wrong on that. These type of reactions are very useful, but something must be insoluble for it to work, normally the desired product. Barium nitrate is highly soluble and no pathway exists based on any sort of reaction like that, even if I am wrong on the mechanism. The reaction will not run to completion, and even if it did, the product will be impossible to separate from the reactants rendering it useless. 
 

Also, barium sulphate is a salt of sulphuric acid. Sulphates do not react with nitric acid because sulphuric acid is stronger than nitric, so it double wouldn’t work, even if the first part worked. If you do want to do a reaction to get the nitrate, which will mean making nitric acid, you need to start with a carbonate/ bicarbonate or hydroxide as you mention. 
 

I thought you decided buy chemicals from that Russian store? If you want to make your own, I’d recommend making barium chloride and then making that into chlorate, rather than running a nitrate based colour system. 

Ahh, thanks for explaining it. But I sadly can't buy chemicals from the Russian store because I would have to pay in crypto, and they said they can't guarantee that the shipment will be successful  Oh well, I expect it's kind of difficult to ship from a country that's currently in a war. I could also make chlorate, it's a possibility, but I've seen some other people complain about barium chlorate not giving good results. I will try it if necessary, but i will focus more on producing the nitrate.

[AustralianPyromaniac]

Barium chlorate greens are literally perfect, the gold standard. Definitely there’s plenty of great comps that don’t use it, but a mix of barium chlorate and shellac 80:20 is spectacular.

The stars can be hard to light, expensive, and slow burning. But the colour is faultless. 

The nitrate path is still good, if you only want green and red. But you’ll need to make or buy (per)chlorate to get a full colour pallet. You can make nitric acid based on the chemicals you have, and go that way. It’s just dangerous and difficult. If you can get sulphuric acid even better, and make nitric acid that way. 

[PillaDoubleG]

10 hours ago, AustralianPyromaniac said:

Barium chlorate greens are literally perfect, the gold standard. Definitely there’s plenty of great comps that don’t use it, but a mix of barium chlorate and shellac 80:20 is spectacular.

The stars can be hard to light, expensive, and slow burning. But the colour is faultless. 

The nitrate path is still good, if you only want green and red. But you’ll need to make or buy (per)chlorate to get a full colour pallet. You can make nitric acid based on the chemicals you have, and go that way. It’s just dangerous and difficult. If you can get sulphuric acid even better, and make nitric acid that way. 

Damn, I didn't know that chlorates were THAT good, my mistake. Also, the main reason of why I don't want to use chlorate is how much effort it takes to make any (per)chlorate. I would probably feel bad using it on anything . I'm also not really aiming for a super complex color pallet, just the basic colors (red, blue, green, pink), nothing more. 

Edited December 17, 2023 by PillaDoubleG

[cmjlab]

14 hours ago, AustralianPyromaniac said:

Barium chlorate greens are literally perfect, the gold standard. Definitely there’s plenty of great comps that don’t use it, but a mix of barium chlorate and shellac 80:20 is spectacular.

The stars can be hard to light, expensive, and slow burning. But the colour is faultless. 

The nitrate path is still good, if you only want green and red. But you’ll need to make or buy (per)chlorate to get a full colour pallet. You can make nitric acid based on the chemicals you have, and go that way. It’s just dangerous and difficult. If you can get sulphuric acid even better, and make nitric acid that way. 

Call me a sterotyp"er", but the most disappointing aspect of your video is the lack of an Australian accent....  😞

(kidding of course)

[AustralianPyromaniac]

2 hours ago, cmjlab said:

Call me a sterotyp"er", but the most disappointing aspect of your video is the lack of an Australian accent....  😞

(kidding of course)

Loooool sorry to disappoint! I do actually have an Aussie accent, that’s just not my video. Something random I found on YT