Toilet paper black powder

[TXpyro]

Hey y'all, I'm new here and I thought about making my first few posts about some helpful info that people might not already know. Let me know if this information is already known.

I found a great video on black powder. Some guy charred up some toilet paper and it makes great BP charcoal. I assume it burns so well due to the lack of impurities. I don't know a whole lot about the toilet paper making process but I do know they turn it into pulp or something. 

I just think it might be cheaper and maybe better than the skylighter stuff. There's nothing wrong with skylighter charcoal and I've used it plenty of times in the past. I just think this homemade stuff might be better. 

Anyways, this is the video:

https://youtu.be/UTV5I8HDX1I?si=y_3KjexTAHT8rjm8

[cmjlab]

It's a cool video, thanks for posting it.

It seems like for muzzleloading it's not a bad idea, max power (according to that guys testing), and not too dirty after a few shots.  But I feel like I'd burn a LOT of T.P. to make 50-75lbs of b.p. a year!  

The cedar pet bedding and a couple other local woods I've used probably don't make 1816 fps muzzleloading powder , but it works good for pyro, consistent, and is not too expensive.

If you try it though, id be curious to see how the b.p. turns out for you!  Make a video and post it if you can.

[Mumbles]

Almost every variety of homemade BP is going to be better than commercial airfloat, which is what skylighter and other suppliers sell.  

It's pretty common to see reports of things like toilet paper, news paper, etc. as high performers.  In the paper production and recycling chain, those sort of things are generally toward the end of the life cycle.  The things that matter in paper like strength, fiber length, color, etc degrade the farther down the chain it gets.  It's generally why things like paper towels are not generally recyclable, and I really hope no one is recycling toilet paper.

I've wondered about this for a while.  I've sort of wondered if the low strength is a benefit here, making really soft charcoal.  Something really soft would break down really fast and might make good BP with less than optimal processing, or might might even finer charcoal particles with normal processing.  I'm not buying in yet, but there's too many reports of high performing BP to ignore.  

[TXpyro]

I just made a batch and it performs very well. The only downside is a single roll of toilet paper only gives you about 35 grams of charcoal excluding the cardboard tube inside. It obviously wouldn't be very cost effective when making BP on a large scale but it's pretty darn fast. Overall, I don't see any real uses for it in the firework making world. 

[cmjlab]

Did you get a video of it?  How did you test it? I'm mainly curious to see it perform. Thanks.

[TXpyro]

17 hours ago, cmjlab said:

Did you get a video of it?  How did you test it? I'm mainly curious to see it perform. Thanks.

What would be a good way of testing it? I'm not sure how the average burn rate test goes. 

[TYRONEEZEKIEL]

There is an identical thread on fireworking.com and according to the tests going on there, the TP BP is outperforming ERC charcoal by a large margin. 

[cmjlab]

1 hour ago, TXpyro said:

What would be a good way of testing it? I'm not sure how the average burn rate test goes. 

If it were me, I'd just pick a process that allows you to measure your normal B.P. and then keep everything the same to measure your TP B.P.  

For example, measure out 5g and pound a spolette with your normal B.P., then measure 5g of TP B.P. and pound a spolette.  Do a couple of each and video time them.

Or, use a 3" mortar & baseball test.... Just search for B.P. baseball test, there are lots of descriptions.

If you don't have a 3" mortar you can search for golf ball b.p. test.

Really, it's just a way to show a measured approach to measure difference between your average B.P., and another B.P.  Good luck.

 

 

[DavidF]

1 hour ago, TYRONEEZEKIEL said:

There is an identical thread on fireworking.com and according to the tests going on there, the TP BP is outperforming ERC charcoal by a large margin. 

I think the ERC beats other woods easily (partially) because it starts as flakes, not chunks of wood. TP beats ERC because it's even more easy to reduce to a fine particle size. There are many fondly held beliefs promoted by the gatekeepers of BP knowledge, but some of those beliefs have been debunked by scientists. The differences in preparation methods are often overlooked, as the ongoing popularity contest between woods seems to show. There are many many studies done on black powder. Some of the fondly held beliefs are not based on studies. They are based on opinions, and questioning the opinions is not always welcome. My attempts to replace beliefs with empirical data were appreciated until any piece of data that contradicted certain widely expressed opinions was presented. Attempts to discredit empirical data ensued. It was disappointing, to say the least. It was easier to withdraw than to continue going up against such resistance to new data. 

[Richtee]

On 12/13/2023 at 1:25 PM, TXpyro said:

What would be a good way of testing it? I'm not sure how the average burn rate test goes. 

The baseball test, or I’m a fan of the “white paper” test. a 6” or so line of the stuff ignited. The paper should not catch fire.

 

Also I have used newsprint paper MANY times. Makes very hot BP.

[PyroGb]

I like the idea of very good performing bp from toilet paper and my guess is that the TP charcoals very quick but unlike some people I live in a place where there are a bunch of diferent types of wood for me to “browse” however I wonder how quick you can go from raw materials to done with the tp method. Like speedrun hype thing. There have been many times when I look at my bp container and I’m out with plenty of time to finish the project.🤔😃

[cmjlab]

Using TLUD to cook the charcoal, after removing center cardboard roll and a few piles that have glue on them, I'm sure it couldn't take more than 2-3 min per roll (assuming they are tossed in whole).  

If I were a betting man, I'd guess 3.5 hours total time (not including corning or ricing).

Since it's T.P., I bet it doesn't need to be milled first, so right into the ball mill for 2 hours (that's what I run mine for - Rebel mill jar, and an efficient media load), maybe 3.5 hours with handling and cooling time?

[PyroGb]

That’s what I was thinking I’ll have to try it but the thought of good/great gunpowder in (more realistically for me) 4 or so hours would be very useful.

[FlaMtnBkr]

Something I don't see mentioned often/ever is after ricing or corning using water to wet the BP, how quickly the grains are then dried.

I've found you want to dry them as fast as possible to get a hotter powder as well as a more consistent one from batch to batch.

I put the BP in maybe 1/2" layers on plastic trays (I would avoid shiny metal) and put in direct sun and even use a fan blowing across the top if possible. Should be dry in 20 or 30 min. 

If I wait a few hours or even overnight before drying it, there is a visually noticeable decrease in performance.

Anyways, something to consider if you're trying to optimize your BP...

[Sulphurstan]

On 12/13/2023 at 9:45 PM, DavidF said:

My attempts to replace beliefs with empirical data were appreciated until any piece of data that contradicted certain widely expressed opinions was presented. Attempts to discredit empirical data ensued. It was disappointing, to say the least. It was easier to withdraw than to continue going up against such resistance to new data. 

Arthur. Are these empirical datas and studies still available somewhere? I'm interested (and not to discredit them!)

[FrankRizzo]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:54 PM, cmjlab said:

Using TLUD to cook the charcoal, after removing center cardboard roll and a few piles that have glue on them, I'm sure it couldn't take more than 2-3 min per roll (assuming they are tossed in whole).  

If I were a betting man, I'd guess 3.5 hours total time (not including corning or ricing).

Since it's T.P., I bet it doesn't need to be milled first, so right into the ball mill for 2 hours (that's what I run mine for - Rebel mill jar, and an efficient media load), maybe 3.5 hours with handling and cooling time?

I'm not sure that you could use a TLUD to process a roll of paper. Dunno if you've ever tried to burn scrap paper or magazines in a firepit, but it's quite tough to get at the inner layers. A roll of paper would be akin to trying to process a log.

[cmjlab]

I honestly hadn't considered that.  I have 5 kids so any TP burning would not go over well with my wife!  We already have to buy in bulk, and people think we are "panic buying" sometimes, but it's just normal TP consumption for us.... Now pet bedding, that I don't have to worry about, unless I make my kids wipe their ass with cedar chips so I can burn the TP........ hmmmm 😁

[Richtee]

4 hours ago, FrankRizzo said:

I'm not sure that you could use a TLUD to process a roll of paper. Dunno if you've ever tried to burn scrap paper or magazines in a firepit, but it's quite tough to get at the inner layers. A roll of paper would be akin to trying to process a log.

A constant heat source would get it done. Logs are often done that way. But TP? Just pack in newspaper, trust me.

 

[FrankRizzo]

15 hours ago, Richtee said:

A constant heat source would get it done. Logs are often done that way. But TP? Just pack in newspaper, trust me.

 

Agreed. It'll need to be done via retort (as Ned and the fellow in the video did). The TLUD technique relies on the material charge to be able to actively pass gasses between particles being pyrolyzed.