Woodys rocket tooling broke on the first use. Why did this happen? i was only pressing with 5000 psi.

[DecimusMaximus]

Hey everyone looking for some help here as i cant find any other posts about bent or broken rocket tooling. I cant believe it broke on 1 use only!

here are the pics:

https://ibb.co/5Lf5VTk
https://ibb.co/nPK9RMH
https://ibb.co/nbzMr58

3lb Woodys rocket tooling broke on the first press attempt. Its cracked and warped as seen in the pictures. I was only pressing around 5000 psi. At some point the pulpy tubes i bought from woodys bulged. Could the bulge have pushed away the comp and cause the taper part of the rammer to mash against the spindle taper?

my spindle looks fine but this rammer is horribly damaged. After spending $189 for this rocket tooling, I am quite disappointed in what happened. I thought woodys was suppose to be the best rocket tooling? I’ve emailed them a couple times with no answers on helping me as well.

What do you guys think happened and what can i do? Im Hoping woodys can help replace it as that would be amazing.

Edited November 26, 2023 by DecimusMaximus

[cmjlab]

So many questions I have!  

That damaged rammer in your photos, was it solid? Or did it have a hole to accept the spindle?

Was that stuck on your spindle?  How did you get it off with no damage to your spindle?

Edited November 25, 2023 by cmjlab

[cmjlab]

For anyone's else reference, these are the photos from the links.

[Richtee]

Prolly that crappy latin handle you got. Foreshadowed. 

 

[DecimusMaximus]

4 hours ago, cmjlab said:

So many questions I have!  

That damaged rammer in your photos, was it solid? Or did it have a hole to accept the spindle?

Was that stuck on your spindle?  How did you get it off with no damage to your spindle?

Yes it has a hole its the same exact set on woodys website the super bp tooling set which accepts the spindle. It was not stuck when i pulled it off. Was it a bit hard to pull off? A little but nothing crazy

[DecimusMaximus]

49 minutes ago, Richtee said:

Prolly that crappy latin handle you got. Foreshadowed. 

 

Hah 🤣 troy was a good movie and i loved the name. 

[DavidF]

You destroyed it! It's obvious that you went past the no pass lines and bottomed out the rammer on the spindle. It's not the tooling's fault. If you 'fessed up to your mistake, Woody MIGHT be nice enough to send another rammer, but if you blamed his tooling for your mistake, he likely won't.

[DecimusMaximus]

3 hours ago, DavidF said:

You destroyed it! It's obvious that you went past the no pass lines and bottomed out the rammer on the spindle. It's not the tooling's fault. If you 'fessed up to your mistake, Woody MIGHT be nice enough to send another rammer, but if you blamed his tooling for your mistake, he likely won't.

Sorry im a bit new and you’re most likely correct that it was absolutely my mistake. Im not here to post blame but learn what happened and how I can improve.

I was at the 2nd or 3rd increment and then this happened. I dont recall it going pass the no pass line if I was already on the 2nd or 3rd increment. That would have pushed the rammer upwards more unless im wrong?

I was focused on keeping the psi consistent so i kept targeting the correct psi and not paying attention to the no pass line.

Do you know how i can get in contact with woodys? They dont seem to check their emails.

 

thank You

Edited November 26, 2023 by DecimusMaximus

[Guest]

I’ve only made little 5/8ths rockets with his tools, but 5000 psi???

I might be way wrong here, but it sounds more to me like you were trying to press black powder into diamonds.

Or maybe we were just so excited we forgot to load some powder in the tube perhaps?

Edited November 26, 2023 by Bbqjoe

[DavidF]

I can only guess how you did that, but the no pass lines are absolutely critical. I wonder what kind of press you have? If you were on the third increment and then that happened, the tube must have split and spilled out the increments? You can see in the third picture how belled out the rammer tip is. This was metal mashing into metal. I'm guessing by your comments that you were not using a tube support. A crappy tube can't take 5000psi without a support. 

I would strongly suggest you watch rocket making tutorials on YouTube by Ned Gorski, or Woody has a few too. You are definitely missing something, and you need to know what that is. 3lb is a big rocket for a new guy. I started on them too, and wrecked my tooling too. I feel your pain. I'm sure Woody will get back to you, but it is Thanksgiving weekend.

Bbqjoe, 5000psi is pretty light for pressed BP rockets, according to most rocket makers. Your 5/8" tooling has only .307 square inches of area, so that's only about 1535lbs of force. For a 3lb rocket, 5000psi would be 3925lbs of force. I only use about 3500psi on mine, but I dampen my BP so I can use less force.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, DavidF said:

I can only guess how you did that, but the no pass lines are absolutely critical. I wonder what kind of press you have? If you were on the third increment and then that happened, the tube must have split and spilled out the increments? You can see in the third picture how belled out the rammer tip is. This was metal mashing into metal. I'm guessing by your comments that you were not using a tube support. A crappy tube can't take 5000psi without a support. 

I would strongly suggest you watch rocket making tutorials on YouTube by Ned Gorski, or Woody has a few too. You are definitely missing something, and you need to know what that is. 3lb is a big rocket for a new guy. I started on them too, and wrecked my tooling too. I feel your pain. I'm sure Woody will get back to you, but it is Thanksgiving weekend.

Bbqjoe, 5000psi is pretty light for pressed BP rockets, according to most rocket makers. Your 5/8" tooling has only .307 square inches of area, so that's only about 1535lbs of force. For a 3lb rocket, 5000psi would be 3925lbs of force. I only use about 3500psi on mine, but I dampen my BP so I can use less force.

Well hell, with that much reinforcement around the tube, you probably could make diamonds out of bp.

But with no support…..well, nuff said.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Bbqjoe

[DecimusMaximus]

12 hours ago, DavidF said:

I can only guess how you did that, but the no pass lines are absolutely critical. I wonder what kind of press you have? If you were on the third increment and then that happened, the tube must have split and spilled out the increments? You can see in the third picture how belled out the rammer tip is. This was metal mashing into metal. I'm guessing by your comments that you were not using a tube support. A crappy tube can't take 5000psi without a support. 

I would strongly suggest you watch rocket making tutorials on YouTube by Ned Gorski, or Woody has a few too. You are definitely missing something, and you need to know what that is. 3lb is a big rocket for a new guy. I started on them too, and wrecked my tooling too. I feel your pain. I'm sure Woody will get back to you, but it is Thanksgiving weekend.

Bbqjoe, 5000psi is pretty light for pressed BP rockets, according to most rocket makers. Your 5/8" tooling has only .307 square inches of area, so that's only about 1535lbs of force. For a 3lb rocket, 5000psi would be 3925lbs of force. I only use about 3500psi on mine, but I dampen my BP so I can use less force.

Yes the tube definitely split. i think thats what happened too. That it split and the  nozzle rammer went pass the comp and touched metal to metal. i still have the tube with the bulge/split with the small amount of comp still in there and can take a pic of it when i get home.

No tube support. From my understanding i thought the tube support wasnt critical especially when im only pressing 5000 psi but i may be wrong there.

I’ve watched all the youtube videos multiple times that's how i gained confidence in pressing. I even watched woodys after and I could not see what i did wrong. 

I was using a force meter I made which has a ram diameter of 1.5” which means around 2800 psi on the gauge is actually around 5000 psi.

The math for that is 5000 psi (the psi i want on the comp) / 1.76625 (square inch of the ram) = 2,830 on the gauge.

 

[DavidF]

Well, now you know to watch the no pass lines, especially on the first increment. Pulpy tubes with no tube support can't take 5000psi. A tip for you, if you want it. Tube supports are expensive and often don't fit the tubes somebody might have on hand. You can buy 10 or 12 foot lengths of mylar 20" wide and cut that down to make a couple of cheapo tube supports that get the job done. I use the matte both sides stuff, 0.005" thick. It's important how you cut it, but it's easy to fab up a support. I could give more detail if any interest. I used to use brass shim stock but mylar works, is easier to work with, and it's cheaper.

You didn't mention much about the kind of rocket, press, propellant, etc... That would be handy to know too.

[cmjlab]

I second the unique and very effective tube support alternative DaveF came up with - it works great to accommodate differences in tubes and costs much less than tube supports (considering you need a different one for different sizes and even styles sometimes).

[DavidF]

Thanks cmjlab. I've used my original brass 1lb support for hundreds of rockets, and the mylar ones for a lot too. I checked last night and the exact size roll of mylar (actually called Duralar) from Grafix is not currently available on Amazon, where I bought mine. I imagine folks in the USA could just order it from Grafix directly, pretty cheaply. When I worked at the plant, we used to joke that the place was held together with rubber bands and tape- just like my supports

[DecimusMaximus]

20 hours ago, DavidF said:

Well, now you know to watch the no pass lines, especially on the first increment. Pulpy tubes with no tube support can't take 5000psi. A tip for you, if you want it. Tube supports are expensive and often don't fit the tubes somebody might have on hand. You can buy 10 or 12 foot lengths of mylar 20" wide and cut that down to make a couple of cheapo tube supports that get the job done. I use the matte both sides stuff, 0.005" thick. It's important how you cut it, but it's easy to fab up a support. I could give more detail if any interest. I used to use brass shim stock but mylar works, is easier to work with, and it's cheaper.

You didn't mention much about the kind of rocket, press, propellant, etc... That would be handy to know too.

Im definitely interested in your tube support idea. Where can i find more details? I was just gonna use pvc and metal hose clamps.

i was pressing sali whistle comp in a 1” tube

here’s video of the tubing that i used with composition still inside. As you can see the composition is not even destroyed so how did the taper end of the rammer get bent and warped? I dont get it!!

 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by DecimusMaximus

[dagabu]

User error.

You need a tube support, as others have said and you need to NEVER EXCEED the NO-GO lines. 

Send it back to Caleb, he will fix them...

[DecimusMaximus]

1 hour ago, dagabu said:

User error.

You need a tube support, as others have said and you need to NEVER EXCEED the NO-GO lines. 

Send it back to Caleb, he will fix them...

Thats the thing… i dont think i went pass the no-go lines. How could I have done that when theres composition in the way all the way at the bottom?  Maybe im wrong because i forgot to look at the no pass lines. Wouldnt the composition stop the rammer from going down pass the no pass line? 

 

Edited November 27, 2023 by DecimusMaximus
Nvm was able to call woodys but they are quite backed up

[Arthur]

Problems happen on first use when you are using something wrongly. Check your calculations for pressure, calculating for area of the ram and tool etc. Check that the correct amount of nozzle mix was used, check that the tubes are the right length for the no-go marks. Maybe you need a tube support of the right size for the tubes you have.

[Arthur]

8 minutes ago, DecimusMaximus said:

 Wouldnt the composition stop the rammer from going down pass the no pass line? 

 

The rammer will hit the bottom/taper spindle if you use too little compound. 

[Mumbles]

It's hard to say exactly what happened.  I agree with everyone else that it looks like the rammer bottomed out on the spindle.  I know he uses stainless for the spindles, but I can't recall the material of the rammers.  I vaguely recall that they may be aluminum, which will get eaten alive if they bottom out on the spindle.  It may also explain why the rammer still came off fairly easily.  Anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the material.  My best guess is similar to others in that when the bottom of the casing split and expanded, the rammer went into the base of the spindle, effectively exceeding the no-pass line, whether or not the actual no-pass line went into the tube or not.  For happening on the 2nd or 3rd increment, it doesn't look like there is a whole lot of composition in there yet, which may have contributed.  

Were you using the 10" precut tubes, or the longer uncut tubes?  If they were the longer variety, it's possible the tube was shorter than the no-pass lines are designed for.

[DavidF]

Arthur, there's no nozzle mix in a whistle rocket. The pressure isn't the problem. The problem is pressing whistle without a tube support in a pulpy tube (or any tube). The OP answered his own question perfectly in the first post. The comp moved out of the way and the rammer bottomed out. That's the whole story. The next problem would have been the rocket CATOing by using standard black powder tooling with sali whistle comp, especially at 5000psi (IF the tube held). There is whistle tooling made for that comp, which is what needs to be used. A black powder spindle is way too long for what the OP is doing and how it's being done. If the rammer didn't go past the  no pass line, it's because the tube is too short.

To get an idea what's what, stand the damaged rammer on the spindle and stand a tube beside it on the spindle base, and see where the jam line is. It will likely be lower than the top of the tube. Still wonder what kind of press was used. I'll describe the mylar support later.

[DecimusMaximus]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:51 PM, Mumbles said:

It's hard to say exactly what happened.  I agree with everyone else that it looks like the rammer bottomed out on the spindle.  I know he uses stainless for the spindles, but I can't recall the material of the rammers.  I vaguely recall that they may be aluminum, which will get eaten alive if they bottom out on the spindle.  It may also explain why the rammer still came off fairly easily.  Anyone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about the material.  My best guess is similar to others in that when the bottom of the casing split and expanded, the rammer went into the base of the spindle, effectively exceeding the no-pass line, whether or not the actual no-pass line went into the tube or not.  For happening on the 2nd or 3rd increment, it doesn't look like there is a whole lot of composition in there yet, which may have contributed.  

Were you using the 10" precut tubes, or the longer uncut tubes?  If they were the longer variety, it's possible the tube was shorter than the no-pass lines are designed for.

I used 10” precut pulpy tubes exactly from woodys site. The spindle does seem like stronger metal but not sure as well. 

[DecimusMaximus]

On 11/27/2023 at 5:13 PM, DavidF said:

Arthur, there's no nozzle mix in a whistle rocket. The pressure isn't the problem. The problem is pressing whistle without a tube support in a pulpy tube (or any tube). The OP answered his own question perfectly in the first post. The comp moved out of the way and the rammer bottomed out. That's the whole story. The next problem would have been the rocket CATOing by using standard black powder tooling with sali whistle comp, especially at 5000psi (IF the tube held). There is whistle tooling made for that comp, which is what needs to be used. A black powder spindle is way too long for what the OP is doing and how it's being done. If the rammer didn't go past the  no pass line, it's because the tube is too short.

To get an idea what's what, stand the damaged rammer on the spindle and stand a tube beside it on the spindle base, and see where the jam line is. It will likely be lower than the top of the tube. Still wonder what kind of press was used. I'll describe the mylar support later.

I know the super bp tooling spindle is too long for whistle comp and would cato from all the energy. Because of that, my plan was to press half whistle comp and half BP then another layer of whistle comp above the BP. that would have been a gorgeous whistle with bp “charcoaly” tail. Sadly i have to wait until my tooling is fixed.
I realized my mistake in ordering super bp tooling but when trying to email for an exchange more than 4 weeks ago they dont answer emails so i figured i do a half half mix.

The tube i used is 10” 3lb puply tubes from woodys site. 

I used a 12 ton harbor freight press.

I was using a force meter I made which has a ram diameter of 1.5” which means around 2800 psi on the gauge is actually around 5000 psi.

The math for that is 5000 psi / 1.76625 = 2,830 on the gauge.

(the psi i want on the comp) / 1.76625 (square inch of the ram) = psi on the gauge since the gauge is calibrated for 1 square inch.

[DecimusMaximus]

Good news is i finally found the phone number for woodys and his wife answered and was very nice on the phone. They saw my pics and said will fix it for $30. 
 

Another good news is my first ever ball shell went amazing this weekend! It was a 6” willow with center silver shower + slow flash for break assist. I used silver shower tails as well. I used my own homemade ERC for the 2fa lift and my apogee calculations were perfect with the chinese time fuse and home made black match. The willow stars were inconsistent hence the varying brightness 😵‍💫

 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2023 by DecimusMaximus