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Perchlorate based charcoal fire dust


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#1 Twesla

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Posted 04 June 2021 - 03:51 PM

Hello everyone, I was hoping to get some suggestions for a chrysanthemum or tiger tail type of composition with KP as the principal oxidizer. I recently rolled a batch of Bleser AP blue stars substituting the dextrin with SGRS, and I rolled on a single layer of pinball prime with 5% silicon. Normally with AP colors I would do a thick layer of a KP color over the AP color, and then step prime that with fence post prime, but I really like this color as is and Id prefer a charcoal and Ti tail, or possibly a glitter.

Im really just hoping to hear about what you all do with a single color AP star, since theyre notoriously more difficult to light. This normally would just be something Id experiment with, but I need to start building all the shells I want to do on the 4th of July, so I dont want this to eat up anymore time. Thank you very much in advance!

#2 Carbon796

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 10:18 AM

Bleser's new blue is meant to be bound with N/C. Both Dex and SGRS are internet/hobbyist substitutions. It's not that AP color stars are necessarily overly hard to light. It's that they generally have a lower critical wind velocity.

I've primed AP color stars two different ways, they both work. But the second way, is probably " the smarter " more reliable, long term method.

AP color, n/c bound KP hot prime, water bound scratch mixed prime.

AP color, water bound KP hot prime, n/c bound scratch mixed prime.

Of course n/c to n/c is also an option. But, I generally prefer a water bound option, when available.

Edited by Carbon796, 06 June 2021 - 10:25 AM.


#3 Twesla

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 01:26 PM

Awesome. thank you for the reply! Thats good to know about the lower critical wind velocity. Also, I apologize for not being more specific about which Bleser AP blue it is.
AP 68
Basic copper chloride 11
Hexamine 17
Dextrin 4

I also have a green that I came across on YouTube that turned out amazing in person.
AP 50
Barium Nitrate 35
Shellac 15

#4 Carbon796

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Posted 06 June 2021 - 06:58 PM

Bleser's #20 AP blue, should be made with copper oxychloride. Copper chloride is hygroscopic/deliquescent.

#5 Twesla

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 08:38 AM

Thats right, it was number 20! I apologize again for being unclear, I did use copper oxychloride.

I distilled a bunch of fuming nitric acid over the weekend and made/dissolved the NC yesterday, so Im going to finish that blue off today. Thank you again for your reply!

#6 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 05:54 PM

Thats right, it was number 20! I apologize again for being unclear, I did use copper oxychloride.

I distilled a bunch of fuming nitric acid over the weekend and made/dissolved the NC yesterday, so Im going to finish that blue off today. Thank you again for your reply!

Hey brother, a lot of new folks take advice on here word-for-word. So accuracy in listing chems and comps is pretty important. In this case, the chloride/oxychloride mix-up would probably just destroy their batch of comp, but some other chem substitutions are not so harmless. Take care with that, please. Glad your AP comps are working well for you.



#7 justvisiting

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 03:17 PM

It's very interesting that my entire pyro book collection doesn't have even one reference to a perchlorate-based charcoal streamer formula. I wonder what makes this oxidizer so unfit for the purpose. Maybe it's the expense of it? Chlorate-based charcoal streamers were easy enough to find in Weingart. It seems to me that it should be easy enough to design a potassium perchlorate charcoal streamer formula to go over the AP blue. I know I'm not that smart, but somebody here might be. I think the combo would look very nice.



#8 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 04:10 PM

It's very interesting that my entire pyro book collection doesn't have even one reference to a perchlorate-based charcoal streamer formula. I wonder what makes this oxidizer so unfit for the purpose. Maybe it's the expense of it? Chlorate-based charcoal streamers were easy enough to find in Weingart. It seems to me that it should be easy enough to design a potassium perchlorate charcoal streamer formula to go over the AP blue. I know I'm not that smart, but somebody here might be. I think the combo would look very nice.

You're probably largely right about the cost differential between perc and nitrate. Also, no real need for a chlorine donor in (most?) charcoal comps. Not to mention that BP (nitrate)-based comps are "usually" easier to ignite than a lot of perc based-comps that require a little more initial energy to get the perc to dump its oxygen; thinking about the hot prime used for perc rubber stars here vs BP mill dust or similar for priming charcoal stars. Getting perc/charcoal comps working shouldn't be a difficult task, though...

 

Can anybody think of a potential advantage of using perc over KNO3 for charcoal streamers?


Edited by SharkWhisperer, 09 June 2021 - 04:12 PM.


#9 Twesla

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 04:17 PM

Hey brother, a lot of new folks take advice on here word-for-word. So accuracy in listing chems and comps is pretty important. In this case, the chloride/oxychloride mix-up would probably just destroy their batch of comp, but some other chem substitutions are not so harmless. Take care with that, please. Glad your AP comps are working well for you.


Thank you for taking a moment to point that out, Ill definitely be more conscientious about full clarity going forward 😁
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#10 justvisiting

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 04:31 PM

Shark, it was about compatibility with the AP blue core. The OP wanted a perc-based charcoal comp to keep nitrate away from the AP. When he asked the question, it occurred to me that I've never seen such a formula and I became curious about it.



#11 Twesla

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 04:41 PM

There is a soft willow formula that uses 30% potassium perchlorate, but it still has 10% potassium nitrate in addition to the KP.

The formula is 30% potassium perchlorate, 30% lampblack, 25% airfloat charcoal, preferably pine, 1-5% shellac depending on desired hang time and +5% dextrin. Its supposed to be hand mixed and granulated with shellac in alcohol, then the granules are ball milled when dry along with +5% dextrin. Its unsafe to ball mill the mix prior to granulating, but safe (allegedly per the original source) after granulating. Finally it is best made into cut stars.

I actually made this last year before realizing I had no means of using it because of the crazy long burn time. I only finally got a chance to use it recently in the header of a rocket, and I really liked it.

Theres also a KP based glitter formula on the fireworks cookbook website. The only reason Im thinking of trying it is that it requires courser atomized aluminum (80-325 mesh) than regular glitters that use Reynolds 120. I bought some of the 80-325 mesh aluminum to try to make glitter fountains back before I knew better.

Anywho, now that I really think about it I can not really think of any advantage KP would have over potassium nitrate in a charcoal streamer formula.

#12 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 04:47 PM

Shark, it was about compatibility with the AP blue core. The OP wanted a perc-based charcoal comp to keep nitrate away from the AP. When he asked the question, it occurred to me that I've never seen such a formula and I became curious about it.

Ahhh, indeed. Muddled the thread's original focus. But if perc/charcoal made an outstanding effect it might be worth considering perc for separate charcoal star comps (cost bedamned...). But I'm sure a thousand have done this before, akin to what you pointed out has already been done with chlorate streamers... OP of course remembers that mixing chlorates with AP=bad, of course :=}



#13 Twesla

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 05:01 PM

Indeed! I dont use chlorates at all and likely wont without a few years of experience. I did at the very beginning because its the only oxidizer Im able to synthesize in quantities that would make it worth the trouble, but I backed off when I really started pouring over all the safety information I could find. Then when I realized I could buy Perchlorate for less per pound than it cost me to make chlorate, that sealed the deal.

#14 justvisiting

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 06:17 PM

The best blue I've ever seen was Bleser's 'New Blue'.

 

It's 82- ammonium perchlorate

     18-  copper benzoate

       4- dextrin

 

I think I found it in Best of AFN 2.



#15 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 09 June 2021 - 06:39 PM

The best blue I've ever seen was Bleser's 'New Blue'.

 

It's 82- ammonium perchlorate

     18-  copper benzoate

       4- dextrin

 

I think I found it in Best of AFN 2.

...as copper benzoate goes on the shop chems shopping list....



#16 justvisiting

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Posted 10 June 2021 - 09:41 AM

I've made a mistake in my reporting, and need to clarify. The blue formula that the OP posted is correct, and dextrin is the intended binder according to Mr. Bleser. The Bleser 'New Blue' formula I posted is from AFN 2, but the binder is 1% NC in acetone for pumped star cores. Sorry for that mistake. I know I used NC in priming mine, but I can't remember what binder I used for the stars themselves. 



#17 Twesla

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Posted 10 June 2021 - 11:45 AM

I've made a mistake in my reporting, and need to clarify. The blue formula that the OP posted is correct, and dextrin is the intended binder according to Mr. Bleser. The Bleser 'New Blue' formula I posted is from AFN 2, but the binder is 1% NC in acetone for pumped star cores. Sorry for that mistake. I know I used NC in priming mine, but I can't remember what binder I used for the stars themselves. 


I really like that blue, but I had to make the copper benzoate and I already used the majority of what I have in an electric violet. Plus Ive grown to hate NC lacquer, its a sticky messy fire hazard and between making, thinning and cleaning up afterwards it goes through a lot of acetone, so Im avoiding it unless absolutely necessary.

I did use NC to bind the step prime and outer prime, and it seemed to really work. Thank you again to everyone who replied!




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