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#1 ronmoper76

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Posted 01 March 2021 - 05:38 PM

who has experience with the nitrocellulose recipe that uses KN03 concentrated sulfuric acid and cotton,no nitric acid needed. Its easily available on the web and youtube. I made it 3 times now the same way and made nitro-lacquer out of it. well im running low again..he uses a 2 to 1 ratio of sulfuric acid to potassium nitrate. Thing is i know there has to be a more precise measurement for both chemicals. This method works great and the final product burns excellent and leaves no residue so im determined to repeat it. please do not give me 15 reasons why this is unsafe ,im doing it whether you like it or not,BUT if you honestly do have some useful info,tips tweaks other than using a ice bath or telling me how dangerous it is,lol i would really appreciate it. not saying what i do already is unsatisfactory, i just know this work around not requiring nitric acid has been used and tested by numerous websites and chemist,its valid. i already have the original synthesis that has been around 100 years so i am not looking for any advice on that subject.                        Thank you 



#2 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 01 March 2021 - 08:27 PM

who has experience with the nitrocellulose recipe that uses KN03 concentrated sulfuric acid and cotton,no nitric acid needed. Its easily available on the web and youtube. I made it 3 times now the same way and made nitro-lacquer out of it. well im running low again..he uses a 2 to 1 ratio of sulfuric acid to potassium nitrate. Thing is i know there has to be a more precise measurement for both chemicals. This method works great and the final product burns excellent and leaves no residue so im determined to repeat it. please do not give me 15 reasons why this is unsafe ,im doing it whether you like it or not,BUT if you honestly do have some useful info,tips tweaks other than using a ice bath or telling me how dangerous it is,lol i would really appreciate it. not saying what i do already is unsatisfactory, i just know this work around not requiring nitric acid has been used and tested by numerous websites and chemist,its valid. i already have the original synthesis that has been around 100 years so i am not looking for any advice on that subject.                        Thank you 

Buy it from Firefox. $16/pound pure; shipped wet. Firefox-fx.com . Way cheaper than you'll ever make it with drain cleaner sulfuric acid.

 

Else write out the chemical equation(s) and do the stoichiometry. Why does this nitration reaction even need sulfuric acid?


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#3 ronmoper76

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 10:45 AM

I wish i knew,im not a expert at chemistry. im guessing the combination of sulfuric and potassium nitrate creates the nitric acid on its own and somehow there is enough sulfuric acid left over to complete the reaction?? I know shake and bake meth does something similar,it creates enough anhydrous ammonia to dissolve and react with the lithium from the combination of the ammonium nitrate and acid , without needing to acquire the ammonia separately..I find it really fascinating and its fun to do also


Edited by ronmoper76, 02 March 2021 - 10:56 AM.


#4 yardarmwheeze

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 03:27 PM

I wish i knew,im not a expert at chemistry. im guessing the combination of sulfuric and potassium nitrate creates the nitric acid on its own and somehow there is enough sulfuric acid left over to complete the reaction?? I know shake and bake meth does something similar,it creates enough anhydrous ammonia to dissolve and react with the lithium from the combination of the ammonium nitrate and acid , without needing to acquire the ammonia separately..I find it really fascinating and its fun to do also

Hey dude please don't talk about meth lightly. Its isn't fun to make, it is a serious drug and is no joke. Meth is a terrible thing and you shouldn't be talking about it on a forum that is about pyrotechnics. I am obviously new here, but I can tell this forum isn't the place to be mentioning this stuff in a glorifying way. I know people who are close to me that meth has ruined their lives.

 

edit- " I am obviously new here, but I can tell this forum isn't the place to be mentioning this stuff in a glorifying way." What I meant was that obviously you really should never mention it in a glorifying way, but expecially here b/c the alphabet agencies probably already are looking at these kinds of forums for these kinds of comments since pyrotechnics can attract people who have malicious intent and such.


Edited by yardarmwheeze, 02 March 2021 - 04:53 PM.

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#5 ronmoper76

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 09:04 PM

its a chemical reaction based on the birch method,used often in chemistry. no one is cooking meth,wtf is wrong with dudes on here. a person says one thing so someone else can make there own version of it and then bitch about it. meth is cranked out by the ship load these days and is so cheap every corner of the us has it. no one is cooking there own meth anymore,it is to fuxxing cheap. and i highly doubt the feds wanna know about who on here is building m80s,the world actually has real threats,anyyone one else have something fucking smart to say?????



#6 yardarmwheeze

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Posted 02 March 2021 - 10:04 PM

its a chemical reaction based on the birch method,used often in chemistry. no one is cooking meth,wtf is wrong with dudes on here. a person says one thing so someone else can make there own version of it and then bitch about it. meth is cranked out by the ship load these days and is so cheap every corner of the us has it. no one is cooking there own meth anymore,it is to fuxxing cheap. and i highly doubt the feds wanna know about who on here is building m80s,the world actually has real threats,anyyone one else have something fucking smart to say?????

Hey man I wasn't attacking you or anything. I don't care about you mentioning the reaction as a comparison, you just said it was fun to do which kinda threw me off (I guess you were trying to say that the method was fun to do when you make nitric acid w/ kno3 and sulfuric acid). Just try not to mention that kind of stuff because it was kinda suspect when you said it was fun to do and you said you did a stunt in prison so it didn't really make anything look any better. Just be careful about how you word things because they can come across the wrong way. 


Edited by yardarmwheeze, 02 March 2021 - 10:21 PM.

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#7 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 03 March 2021 - 12:27 AM

its a chemical reaction based on the birch method,used often in chemistry. no one is cooking meth,wtf is wrong with dudes on here. a person says one thing so someone else can make there own version of it and then bitch about it. meth is cranked out by the ship load these days and is so cheap every corner of the us has it. no one is cooking there own meth anymore,it is to fuxxing cheap. and i highly doubt the feds wanna know about who on here is building m80s,the world actually has real threats,anyyone one else have something fucking smart to say?????

Can you aritculate the "Birch method", please.

 

Drug manufacture has absolutely no place on an already monitored pyro forum, and you should understand that without reminders.

 

Yeah, the feds are interested in who's stupid enough to be openly discussing making M80s, and a lot of other chems/devices that are simple to construct and can cause damage. Yes, they keep track. Yes, this forum is monitored. Yes, you have probably put yourself on a watchlist already from your meth comments on this site, not just ATF, but I'm quite certain DEA and others. Life is so boring for them that they consider people who publicly post like your last writeup to be "persons of interest".

 

It's the friggin' internet...it's like they're reading your diary, ffs. And it's permanent.  You're describing "shake-n-bake" meth synthesis here? And promoting it? That's not cool. Dude, I hope you're not on paper still because your PO will have you back to three hots n a cot soon if that's the case.

 

Damn, guy. You're out of prison, posting about the stupidest way to make meth on a pyro forum, and expecting what besides a knock at the door?

 

Good luck.


Edited by SharkWhisperer, 03 March 2021 - 12:34 AM.

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#8 ronmoper76

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Posted 04 March 2021 - 04:22 PM

yeah no problem



#9 MadMat

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Posted 06 March 2021 - 11:54 AM

Sulfuric acid is usually used in combination with nitric acid for a nitration reaction. Sulfuric acid acts as a dehydrating agent in the reaction. In this case though, the free disassociated ions from both the potassium nitrate and the sulfuric acid do the action of nitric acid. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that this is probably not the most efficient reaction; requiring considerably more time to complete the reaction. Anyway, if you enjoy performing the chemistry, I can see why you would do this, but, it is a lot less effort and probably expense to simply buy blue dot or green dot smokeless powder from a shooter shop. I prefer to get the powder for reloading shot gun shells as it is in flake form. This dissolves easier in acetone than the tiny rod shape form the rifle shell reloading powder comes in. Additionally, double base powders also contain a small percentage of nitroglycerine, which adds a bit more nitrogen to the compound (a good thing for a pyrotechnic binder).


Edited by MadMat, 06 March 2021 - 12:02 PM.


#10 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 06 March 2021 - 01:13 PM

Sulfuric acid is usually used in combination with nitric acid for a nitration reaction. Sulfuric acid acts as a dehydrating agent in the reaction. In this case though, the free disassociated ions from both the potassium nitrate and the sulfuric acid do the action of nitric acid. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that this is probably not the most efficient reaction; requiring considerably more time to complete the reaction. Anyway, if you enjoy performing the chemistry, I can see why you would do this, but, it is a lot less effort and probably expense to simply buy blue dot or green dot smokeless powder from a shooter shop. I prefer to get the powder for reloading shot gun shells as it is in flake form. This dissolves easier in acetone than the tiny rod shape form the rifle shell reloading powder comes in. Additionally, double base powders also contain a small percentage of nitroglycerine, which adds a bit more nitrogen to the compound (a good thing for a pyrotechnic binder).


Actually, there's usually not a "small" percentage of NG in double-base powders. Here's the MSDS from Hodgdon's double base, which lists NG ranging between 10-40% (proprietary). Flat-stamped wafer powder usually has a lower NG concentration than extruded pellets, due to manufacturing limitations. The liquid NG does not contribute so much as a binder due to nitrogen content (it's actually bound itself by the NC in the powder), but is a slightly more potent and oxygen-rich explosive than NC (look at the empirical formulas of glycerin vs cellulose and the carbon/oxygen ratios...C3H8O3 vs C6H10O5). Now look up the empirical formulas for tri-nitrated chems, and you'll see that NC has a negative oxygen balance, while NG has an excess and actually releases a little bit of oxygen as a combustion product. NG has a slightly higher detonation velocity (7700 m/s vs 7300 m/s). Slightly bAttached File  Hodgdon Intl Double Base MSDS.pdf   3.14MB   2 downloadsigger boom for your buck.
 
And homemade guncotton is entertaining, but most rookies don't know how to adequately de-acidify it or what stabilizers are needed to be added to keep it from degrading rather quickly if stored. The appropriate stabilizer is not listed in this MSDS, but the most commonly used one is diphenamine. It is not difficult to locate the appropriate nitration recipe/conditions if you search efficiently. And as with many nitration reactions, you might get a better yield if you use the ammonium salt instead of the potassium salt; both cheap. Different stoichiometries.



#11 ronmoper76

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Posted 06 March 2021 - 01:13 PM

I get a whole bag of cotton balls for 2$ I got 2 gallons of the sulfuric acid for 30 a piece a while back,and the KN03 is obviously cheap as hell,I don't even know how much of that i got...
I literally quadruple the recipe,put the whole bag in there,and throw it out back for the night in the cold. Come back break it up and boil\rinse then holy shit out of it till i get no reaction from baking soda and throw it under a fan to dry. Its very little effort,u just let it alone till its done outside and wash it,powder is over 35$ a pound right now locally,it only cost a few dollars for big ass bag of cotton

#12 MadMat

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Posted 06 March 2021 - 07:33 PM

$35 per pound is WAY over priced! I can find double base smokeless powder for shotguns for less than $20 per pound, if I shop around. The local store here is a little more pricey at around $23 per pound.



#13 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 06 March 2021 - 10:00 PM

$35 per pound is WAY over priced! I can find double base smokeless powder for shotguns for less than $20 per pound, if I shop around. The local store here is a little more pricey at around $23 per pound.

Pistol ammo (and .223/.308) and reloading primers are in short supply nearby but there's powder galore available and not at inflated prices. Definitely less than $20/lb--usual prices--and 1 pound will make 20 pounds of 5% NC lacquer (like 3 gallons), which is a lot. The specific gravity of acetone is less than water... Sure, guncotton/flashpaper is fun stuff for entertainment, but homemade NC without stabilizers is bunk for making pyro comps that won't immediately be used because of degradation issues. Plus, double-base with NG is slightly more energetic, even as a flammable binder.


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#14 MadMat

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Posted 07 March 2021 - 12:37 PM

I did a little reading about the production of smokeless powder and it was written that: "The addition of nitroglycerine softens the propellant, raises the energy content, and reduces hygroscopicity. " I find it hard to believe that nitrocellulose is hygroscopic but, this was quoted right out of an FBI article on the production of smokeless powder.

I also remember reading somewhere that the added NG also reduces the ignition temperature/ease of ignition. So, in a couple ways the nitroglycerine added to Double base smokeless powder is a good thing for a pyro binder


Edited by MadMat, 07 March 2021 - 12:38 PM.


#15 ronmoper76

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Posted 08 March 2021 - 09:05 AM

I also read that there are more than one kind of nitrocellulose,the trinitrate version and the hexanitrate version,the first made the traditional way and the second made with sulfuric acid only no nitric acid needed because of the addition of a nitrate salt. its supposedly way more powerful and less stable but hotter like the double base powder you describe with nitro g added and can be detonated at 7300 meters per second and up to 147% the strength of TNT. Im citing all this from another site so it could have inaccuracies,i didn't test all this out,but i have made it a few times and it is pretty hot shit.



#16 Bourbon

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Posted 08 March 2021 - 10:46 AM

You read it. You're citing from another site. It could have inaccuracies. You made it a few times? Are you talking about the numbers, or process?



#17 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 08 March 2021 - 12:05 PM

I also read that there are more than one kind of nitrocellulose,the trinitrate version and the hexanitrate version,the first made the traditional way and the second made with sulfuric acid only no nitric acid needed because of the addition of a nitrate salt. its supposedly way more powerful and less stable but hotter like the double base powder you describe with nitro g added and can be detonated at 7300 meters per second and up to 147% the strength of TNT. Im citing all this from another site so it could have inaccuracies,i didn't test all this out,but i have made it a few times and it is pretty hot shit.

That's not accurate. The nitration reaction is the same--you're effectively making nitric acid from the nitrate/acid mix in a single displacement reaction: KNO3 + H2SO4 → HNO3 + KHSO4. The crystalline potassium bisulfate product is what makes your soup so thick (unless your acid is shitty weak and full of water). This can be avoided by using ammonium nitrate instead, but you'll need to adjust the ratios to balance the equation. Cellulose is just a polymer chain of linked glucose residues. Cellulose trinitrate is the best you're going to get, with a max nitration approaching 14%. Cellulose hexanitrate is completely false. Look at the chemical structure. A glycosidic unit of cellulose has 3 free hydroxyl group at position 2,3,6. Carbons 1 and 4 are attached to another glycosidic unit to form an equatorial glycosidic bond between subunits, making cellulose cellulose, and these are unavailable for nitration. Positions 2,3,6 are available for nitration (or other reactions).

 

You can talk about glucose hexanitrate or other sugars (galactose, mannose...), because all hydroxyl units are free for reaction so complete nitration of all carbons is possible to give a hexanitrate product. But glucose has two linkage points (one on either end) that link together to form cellulose--can't nitrate these. And only 3 of the 4 "free" carbons can be nitrated because of steric hindrance. If you make shitty NC it's probably mostly the dinitrate (celluloid). Mediocre-to-decent NC is probably a mixture of dinitrate and trinitrate. Hot NC, as hot as it gets, maximally nitrated, is the trinitrate compound. There is no such thing as cellulose hexanitrate.

 

Tried to link a pic of the NC and glucose structures, but wouldn't allow my file type. Check out diagrams of nitrocellulose--it's just a chain of linked glucose subunits. You'll see where nitration is possible, and why it is impossible at the other 3 carbons of the glucose subunits. Most firearm NC is on the order of 13.6% nitration. Max theoretical is 14.1% I believe (would have to do the math).


Edited by SharkWhisperer, 09 March 2021 - 08:24 PM.


#18 ronmoper76

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 06:38 AM

I definitely made it,lol Several times..What Im saying is I have no idea how they came up with the data for the final product and i have no way of testing or verifying it. Yes it makes a excellent nitrocellulose product requiring zero nitric acid to make,but the claims of its performance I have no idea about



#19 SeaMonkey

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 10:42 PM

Well, in truth, it does indeed require Nitric Acid to accomplish the necessary chemical reaction.

 

It's just that the Nitric Acid is created in situ within the solution by double displacement rather than requiring Nitric Acid in its usual separate form.

 

An old trick still very much appreciated even today.



#20 SharkWhisperer

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Posted 18 March 2021 - 11:05 PM

Well, in truth, it does indeed require Nitric Acid to accomplish the necessary chemical reaction.

 

It's just that the Nitric Acid is created in situ within the solution by double displacement rather than requiring Nitric Acid in its usual separate form.

 

An old trick still very much appreciated even today.

beating a dead horse here, my friend. to death and beyond...






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