black powder (separately milled/ screened) and wood discussion

[Bourbon]

Good to know Justvisiting. I've never milled individual components.

 

Oddly enough, I get my best results milling 100 grams for every 2.5 pounds of lead media. Almost everything I mill will easily pass a 80 mesh screen to start with. I've never milled anything from chunk or prill. I don't have any experience there.

[SignalKanboom]

 

The first of many pieces of good advice that I've gotten here is to learn to make BP first. I see why now. It's not complicated but it is a process that needs to be done in the right way. It's a good step. I need to come up with cost effective way to make larger batches of charcoal. Not large necessarily but larger than a 1# coffee can full of wood. Large enough to efficiently mill...

Depending on where you live, Home Depot, or Lowes has a mini galvanized trash can for decent price. Its about 15 bucks. I bought one, but unfortunately I messed up the air flow holes and mine produces too much ash now. Thats is a good medium sized charcoal retort, but do your research better than I did on how to get the air flow right. Edited October 31, 2020 by SignalKanboom

[MikeL]

Well... a seemingly simple thing like dumping the media / charcoal into a media separator and shake it a bit has stumped me. There's a lot of charcoal fines stuck to the hardened lead balls. Is that just how it is or is there a good way to get it off. Or am I overthinking (again)?

 

<Edit> A lot is a relative term. I don't know what I'm doing so it may not be a lot.

Edited October 31, 2020 by MikeL

[MikeL]

I threw my overthinkers cap into the trash, dumped the balls and charcoal into the media separator, shook it, shook it a few more times, and a few more times. I then measured out the contents into a container (tared on the scale) and got 83.5g out of it. I'm one of those people that tries to get all of the peanut butter out of the jar but you know what... charcoal sticks to everything. I think it may even spring away from wherever it is just so it can land on you, your clothes, or whatever else it feels like being on.

 

Now I have to wait for SST media. I was kind of surprised that the little bit of wood I turned to charcoal made as much as it did. Not a lot but certainly useful for testing.

Edited October 31, 2020 by MikeL

[Bourbon]

You need a longer tongue for the peanut butter jar. You may want to find something different for the charcoal.

 

I do the same thing. I use a 4mesh screen for separating and just roll the media around until decently clean.

[MikeL]

I usually give up on the peanut butter too

[MikeL]

I've been reading about the next step(s). I see terms like granulate, press, and binder? That tells me that there's more to it than mixing 75/15/10 of KNO3/C/S. Also, 75/15/10 is a starting place not the only place to start? I've watched a few YT videos on the topic but I'd rather get my info here.

 

If you were new and had 835g of Pecan wood charcoal to turn into BP for testing how would you go about it? Mix one batch at one composition or divide it up. There's not a lot there...

 

I can and will make more charcoal but I'd like to give what I made a fair shot at working (pun intended). Speaking of making more, I've been checking out the Cottonwoods (Willow species) in the backyard. I need to find some limbs that won't be missed As mentioned before I also have plenty of Pecan to try. Would you ever blend chacoals from different species?

[Bourbon]

Depends on the your looking for first. As in, Lift, burst or RP.

 

If it were me, I'd make a small batch of 75/15/10 non binder and granulate it, just to test it out. 100 grams would give you a few test shots. you could check your speeds with the pecan and that would let you make adjustments from there.

[MikeL]

Ok... I just went through the calcs for figuring out how much BP I could make from the charcoal I made. I'm going to replace my scale with one that has a GIANT decimal point. I made this mistake when I weighed my rocket a few weeks ago. I'll correct it after I post this but I didn't see the decimal point again, so I thought I had 835 grams of C... which works out to 12+ pounds of BP. My first thought was how in the heck is it possible to get that much BP out of a few burnts sticks. That's when the lights turned on. It isn't possible... I have 83.5g. Still a respectable amount of BP but not 12+ pounds.

 

I want to run through my math here. Please correct as needed.

 

KNO3 75%

C 15%

S 10%

 

C = 83.5g / 0.15 = 557.2g total BP or about 1.23 pounds. Not too bad for a coffee can full of burnt sticks...

 

KNO3 - 417.9g = 0.92 lbs

C - 83.58g close enough?

S - 55.72g 0.122 pounds

 

How does that look?

Edited October 31, 2020 by MikeL

[MikeL]

Depends on the your looking for first. As in, Lift, burst or RP.

 

If it were me, I'd make a small batch of 75/15/10 non binder and granulate it, just to test it out. 100 grams would give you a few test shots. you could check your speeds with the pecan and that would let you make adjustments from there.

 

I'm literally going one step at a time. I look ahead at each point but until I had charcoal I hadn't given any thought to what was next. Which is why I just figured out that I don't have any KNO3 (other than some stump remover I bought for making model rocket ignitors). I can solve that problem though. I just need to figure out how much to order. I'm just starting so 2 pounds?

 

I'm good with granulating... it's all part of learning

[SignalKanboom]

All of your comp weights are within .5-1% of your 75-15-10. You Should be fine. I have losses due to clumping and sticking to the media/jar as well and it doesnt affect end results much. I know it takes longer, but you should consider running 100 g batches at a time to minimize losses and to get your technique down. This makes weighing much easier.

[Bourbon]

I buy 4 pounds at a time but I'm small fries. I cheat and buy milled so it's a bit pricey. Real pyros would say I'm lazy. They're correct

 

This is what I buy. https://www.amazon.com/POTASSIUM-NITRATE-PURITY-MILLED-POUNDS/dp/B078FM2ZW3/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=kno3&qid=1604178872&sr=8-6

[Bourbon]

All of your comp weights are within .5-1% of your 75-15-10. You Should be fine. I have losses due to clumping and sticking to the media/jar as well and it doesnt affect end results much. I know it takes longer, but you should consider running 100 g batches at a time to minimize losses and to get your technique down. This makes weighing much easier.

I agree with the 100 gram batches for practice and you get to test your pecan before putting all your eggs in one basket.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Bourbon

[MikeL]

All of your comp weights are within .5-1% of your 75-15-10. You Should be fine. I have losses due to clumping and sticking to the media/jar as well and it doesnt affect end results much. I know it takes longer, but you should consider running 100 g batches at a time to minimize losses and to get your technique down. This makes weighing much easier.

 

Alright... I like numbers so I was pretty sure I backed into right amounts. However, 100g batches is a much better idea!

 

I buy 4 pounds at a time but I'm small fries. I cheat and buy milled so it's a bit pricey. Real pyros would say I'm lazy. They're correct

 

This is what I buy. https://www.amazon.com/POTASSIUM-NITRATE-PURITY-MILLED-POUNDS/dp/B078FM2ZW3/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=kno3&qid=1604178872&sr=8-6

 

How about this? - https://fireworkscookbook.com/product/potassium-nitrate-granulated/

 

I agree with the 100 batches for practice and you get to test your pecan before putting all your eggs in one basket.

 

Yup. That lets me practice 3-1/2 times more than just mixing it all up.

[SharkWhisperer]

I buy 4 pounds at a time but I'm small fries. I cheat and buy milled so it's a bit pricey. Real pyros would say I'm lazy. They're correct

 

This is what I buy. https://www.amazon.com/POTASSIUM-NITRATE-PURITY-MILLED-POUNDS/dp/B078FM2ZW3/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=kno3&qid=1604178872&sr=8-6

Why would you pay the Amazon add-on fees instead of just ordering direct from where it's coming from--Chris at FWC??? Nitrate is $2/pound granular or $3/pound milled from the exact same place. With your $5 shipping, you're paying $29 for 4 pounds of KNO₃??? Sheesh. Why aren't you ordering direct. Not to mention his prices are lower than almost anywhere for anything, and an extra pound or 10 of other comps added on won't jack up shipping costs too much.

 

I stand corrected....just checked...if that's all you're ordering, his direct shipping (to Portlandia) brings total to to $31 on his site... it only goes up a buck or two per pound of chems after that, so pays to get other stuff at same time to save on shipping costs ultimately.

Edited October 31, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[SharkWhisperer]

Ok... I just went through the calcs for figuring out how much BP I could make from the charcoal I made. I'm going to replace my scale with one that has a GIANT decimal point. I made this mistake when I weighed my rocket a few weeks ago. I'll correct it after I post this but I didn't see the decimal point again, so I thought I had 835 grams of C... which works out to 12+ pounds of BP. My first thought was how in the heck is it possible to get that much BP out of a few burnts sticks. That's when the lights turned on. It isn't possible... I have 83.5g. Still a respectable amount of BP but not 12+ pounds.

 

I want to run through my math here. Please correct as needed.

 

KNO3 75%

C 15%

S 10%

 

C = 83.5g / 0.15 = 557.2g total BP or about 1.23 pounds. Not too bad for a coffee can full of burnt sticks...

 

KNO3 - 417.9g = 0.92 lbs

C - 83.58g close enough?

S - 55.72g 0.122 pounds

 

How does that look?

Suggest you make only half that batch size or less on your first go-around, so you don't deplete all of your C if you make a mistake....

 

When I'm hand granulating/ricing, a ball of around 200-250 g damp BP fits nicely in my hand--more than that and I split it up into several/many balls to do in sequence. I also granulate with 70% isopropyl to reduce drying time, though many wouldn't add that expense in and just use plain water.

 

If mixing in dextrin for lift/burst, I make balls and let them sit a half hour or so at room temp (or hotter depending on weather) to let it get fully activated and sticky. Even with only 1.5-2% dextrin, I get rock-hard lift if you let it temper a bit before granulating. I also usually use 70% isopropyl for dextrin-bound for quick drying. The 30% water proves sufficient to activate the dextrin.

Edited October 31, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[Bourbon]

 

I stand corrected....just checked...if that's all you're ordering, his direct shipping (to Portlandia) brings total to to $31 on his site... it only goes up a buck or two per pound of chems after that, so pays to get other stuff at same time to save on shipping costs ultimately.

Yep. If I was ordering other stuff I would do it that way.

[MikeL]

To be honest, I didn't notice the shipping because I ordered a scale that will work better than what I have (cheap coffee scale with a very small decimal point) while I was at it and that cost quite a bit more than the KNO3. At some point in the learning process I should be able plan what I want to make and order accordingly. I like the charcoal and BP making process so I don't see me buying charcoal or BP.

 

Isopropyl alcohol, like a lot of things, has gone up in price and seems a little scarce. I was looking for some to clean my 3D printer bed and ended up buying 99.9% pure. I guess I could mix it with the right amount of distilled water to get to 70%?

[SharkWhisperer]

I'd like to find a 5 gallon metal bucket with a metal lid. Actually... I found some on Amazon for $15 to $40 each. Not terrible but if I could "find" something that would be better.

It might be mentioned later on or in another forum, but I've used the Behren's galvanized pails with "locking" lids (available HD, Lowes; I got mine at Ace Hardware for a buck cheaper, surprisingly). I think mine's 6 gallons. They have several models and sizes, but you want the one with the metal tubular handle that clamps down over the top to "seal" the pail closed--most options don't have a locking lid. It's not the best seal, however, and you need to keep an eye on it when rotating in the firepit (or over the gas grill... whatever your heat source). Like gallon paint cans, though, they only seem to hold up for about 5-6 retorts before you get burn-through someplace or the lid just doesn't stay affixed well enough. Drilled two 3/16" holes an inch apart on the lid for exhaust, but after the second use, had gasses leaking around the lid seal on occasion--would just rap on it with a long branch to re-seat it and keep on going. Just like a paint can, if you aim the vent holes towards the fire, you get a nice pleasingly loud jet of flame from the volatiles that are given off. After cooking, I always cover my finished hot container with a wet rag to block up the holes and reduce air entry and then ash formation, til the bucket cools down. Never had a bad batch. I have a stash of fallen willow (weeping) that I stripped the bark off of that is great. Never had a bad batch with Wally-world ERC, either, but you need to make sure you're not buying pine or something else by accident. It should say on the bag and it has a distinct look and smell. Alder shingles from Home depot make equally fast charcoal, but they're not so cost-effective. If your pecan works well, then it sounds like you're all set for a good long time, for essentially free!!! Especially if you can chip it and stuff a can so there's minimal dead space. My willow stock is nothing more than 2-2.5" diameter max, fills the can pretty tightly (less air=less ash) and is a fave!

 

Edited for additional info: Just checked HD website near me; the 6 gallon can I have cost $15. They also have up to a 31 gallon size (!!), but you'd have to attach the lid with screws or something and be sure there weren't any huge air gaps. The 31 gallon with lid was $25. They also have a 10 gallon like mine for $26 and a 20 gallon with slip lid (like the 31 gallon) for $29... Just fyi. I'm sure there's other options, too, but my 6-gallon's getting replaced with a 10-gallon when it finally is toast!

Edited October 31, 2020 by SharkWhisperer

[Bourbon]

 

Isopropyl alcohol, like a lot of things, has gone up in price and seems a little scarce. I was looking for some to clean my 3D printer bed and ended up buying 99.9% pure. I guess I could mix it with the right amount of distilled water to get to 70%?

Nothing wrong with that.. I use Denatured Alcohol cut with distilled water for my 70/30.

[SharkWhisperer]

Yep. If I was ordering other stuff I would do it that way.

He's got a great selection of magnalium grades, all for $14/lb. Website just changed a few months ago and what used to be his "milled" MgAl I believe has been substituted with -325. His sponge Ti is -20+80 for $15/lb (no spherical--that's at Phil's), and Bismuth trioxide for crackle/DEs is $20, the cheapest I've ever seen it by the pound, especially economical if you go CuO heavy in the mix. Compare these prices to Skyrobberlighter.

[SharkWhisperer]

To be honest, I didn't notice the shipping because I ordered a scale that will work better than what I have (cheap coffee scale with a very small decimal point) while I was at it and that cost quite a bit more than the KNO3. At some point in the learning process I should be able plan what I want to make and order accordingly. I like the charcoal and BP making process so I don't see me buying charcoal or BP.

 

Isopropyl alcohol, like a lot of things, has gone up in price and seems a little scarce. I was looking for some to clean my 3D printer bed and ended up buying 99.9% pure. I guess I could mix it with the right amount of distilled water to get to 70%?

I used to buy it at Walmart for $2.00 for a quart of 70% or $2.50 for a quart of 91%. That was pre-covid. They have it rarely, though I've never yet seen it again. Local CVS has pints of 70% for $2.50, which is kind of a rip-off but you don't really use all that much for pound BP batches. If you have a local farm store/Tractor Supply, they probably have gallons of isopropyl in the medicines/liniment sections, but unsure of the price. I considered it for hand sanitizer when the shelves got emptied last March, but it seemed kinda pricey--opted for rotgut 95% ethanol grain alcohol from the liquor store instead (which evaporates just a little faster than IPA). You can dilute your 99.9% IPA to anything you want with water, but I've gotta imagine that is pretty expensive. Water alone works--I just want my powder dry ASAP. Smaller nitrate crystals, too with faster drying=better performance.

 

I mistyped before. My rocket fuel BP I granulate with 91% IPA (if I have it--harder now to easily find cheaply; 70% IPA or just water work); My lift/burst with dextrin I use IPA 70% for the 30% water it contains to activate the binder. Once granulated through 4-mesh (1/4" chicken wire--cheap for a 5 x 2" roll), I let it dry slightly, bust up any large clumps gently with my fingers, run it through the 4-mesh again, gently, spread it out on a tray in the sun (when possible), hope for a breeze or put a fan on it, and let it dry til I can't smell IPA anymore. Then a little longer to let the water evaporate. Stored with drierite packets in a sealed container to get out the last bits of water. Can screen separate different sizes either before or after last bit of water is removed.

 

Short answer is yes, you can dilute your 99.9% pure IPA, but sounds like an expensive way to go.

[SharkWhisperer]

Nothing wrong with that.. I use Denatured Alcohol cut with distilled water for my 70/30.

That works well, too. Even denatured alcohol seems pretty pricey by the gallon compared to the old Walmart IPA prices--recall around $18-20/gallon at Home Depot iirc. Works great. But I always read the MSDS because some denatured alcohols only contain about 70-80% alcohol and sometimes several other volatiles that you may or may not want to breath a lot of...Often methanol, methyl ethyl ketone, etc.

 

I made BP that smelled like rum once when all I had for solvent was an old bottle of 151-proof Bacardi, but I wouldn't want my BP smelling like unidentified VOC residue from denaturing additives...

[Bourbon]

He's got a great selection of magnalium grades, all for $14/lb. Website just changed a few months ago and what used to be his "milled" MgAl I believe has been substituted with -325. His sponge Ti is -20+80 for $15/lb (no spherical--that's at Phil's), and Bismuth trioxide for crackle/DEs is $20, the cheapest I've ever seen it by the pound, especially economical if you go CuO heavy in the mix. Compare these prices to Skyrobberlighter.

Man you're not kidding about the MgAl. I didn't know about all the different grades. I also didn't know he carried star kits. Guess I should have been looking in more than one time a year... I don't want to be mean but, I can't part with a dime for Skylighter. If the prices aren't bad enough, the shipping destroys it altogether.

[Bourbon]

Yes, the Denatured I use has some additives according to the MSDS. I've never noticed any smells after evaporation.

 

I think those additives help with my results. Or, maybe I like to think they do.

 

Edit in: I get a pretty good deal on the Denatured Alcohol as my ol' lady gets a good discount working for the company that owns that store.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Bourbon