Barium and strontium nitrate, how do you mill it?

[dangerousamateur]

Very basic question, I'd like to know how you people usually handle this.

 

Normally I dry it (not the Ba, just the Sr), and give it a run in a coffee grinder.

Then I store it airtight in a "ready to use box"

 

There will be little lumping, but this breaks up when sieving the composition together.

 

 

Now I am into go getters and speed is an issue. Thats when I started to wonder if ball milling the nitrate is worth the effort?

 

 

 

[Carbon796]

I will usually ballmill mine as needed. Store it as shipped, then ballmill it when when prep-ing comps. I've never had the need to dry either one. But, I do live in a fairly dry climate. And, stick to only using Japanese or Dupont made Sr nitrate. I've seen some Sr nitrate that does appear to pick up moisture. I've always assumed it was of Chinese manufacture / origin. Lower quality, with more impurities. Edited August 15, 2020 by Carbon796

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Pyrogarage send Barium Nitrate and Strontium Nitrate in a powder state like sugar, so they are granulous and need to be ballmilled until they become a fluffy impalpaple powder like talcum.

Also, they contain some humidity, and since the place where I live is often humid, I need to dry them in my electric oven at 100° for two hours, then I put the dried ballmilled powders in a ziplog bag.

Edited August 16, 2020 by MinamotoKobayashi

[Richtee]

Yer gonna wanna be careful with the barium stuff. It’s pretty toxic. Especially milled/milling... Just sayin’.

Edited August 15, 2020 by Richtee

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Yes I know, it is a good idea to manage it using mask and gloves, or in an open space with a gentle breeze.

Hovewer in small quantities I never had issues, also without protections.

Instead, I suffered bad intoxication with antimony trisulfide while preparing Winokur 39J (vomit, diarrhea, tiredness),

a very bad boy, much worse compared to barium and strontium!

Edited August 16, 2020 by MinamotoKobayashi

[SharkWhisperer]

Coffee grinder for both. With barium, I use a full-face respirator and other PPE outside, and keep the wind at my back (gloves, sleeves, goggles (not glasses--shit will easily get around glasses, get absorbed in your eyes and enter your nasolacrimal system that drains into your throat and then is swallowed and absorbed!). Strontium not so worrisome, but it always goes in the oven at around 100C for an hour or so beforehand. Both stored airtight afterwards with color-indicator, reusable dessicant packets. Never had a comp perform unsatisfactorily with either due to insufficient powder fineness or hygroscopicity. I'm talking kilo quantities; I rarely use more than that at once. Strontium works fine after months of storage and doesn't need re-cooking in my climate. If there's any question, it's already dust, and another quick oven run eliminates any worries. Never had any issues with barium powdering or storage, but please don't do the coffee grinder thing inside--they are simply not meant for complete containment and likely fine dust is blasting everywhere. With both chems (well, most chems), a visible whisp of airfloat is obvious if you don't wait quite awhile before opening the grinder after powdering. And it would be no fun, difficult, and uncertain attempting a barium nitrate clean-up if you accidentally dropped the grinder or the lid broke, especially in the house. Also, it is almost impossible to keep fine dusts out of the motor of coffee/spice grinders, so I have three grinders--one for oxidizers (except barium), one for barium nitrate only so I don't inadvertently contaminate otherwise non-poisonous comps with small amounts of nasty soluble barium compounds, and one for fuels and other compounds. The barium grinder is thoroughly cleaned inside and out after each use and stored in a plastic bag. The other two grinders sit on a shelf... This works for smaller quantities. It takes me maybe 10 minutes to grind and merge a kilo of chemical in batches to use or store; don't let the motor get too hot to extend grinder life (never had one fail yet, though they get dull after extensive use). For more quantity, you probably want a large(er) ball mill--a hobbyist/HF-sized mill won't mill too much volume at one time, so it'd take you all day instead of 10 minutes to do 2 pounds... Please, please do not underestimate the toxicity of barium nitrate. Or, as Kobayashi said above, antimony trisulfide--unpleasant stuff to add to your diet. There are other chems to pay close attention to, also. And your lungs don't appreciate inhaling airfloat anything, benign charcoal included. Know your chems.

[davidh]

Yer gonna wanna be careful with the barium stuff. It’s pretty toxic. Especially milled/milling... Just sayin’.

I know what barium nitrate tastes like. I was making lances one day, and without thinking, blew out the base plate holding it right up to my face. It was full of green lance comp that was barium nitrate based. It was a funky metallic salt taste. Anyway I spit it out, rinsed my mouth out, blew my nose, and carried on. Nothing happened to me.

 

I have heard that some people are more tolerant of barium nitrate than others. I personally have never had so much as a stomach cramp from it. I do try not to touch my face when I've been using it or other toxic chemicals. A habit that strangely comes in useful now when out and about...

Edited August 19, 2020 by davidh

[SharkWhisperer]

David hah, now we know what barium nitrate tastes like!

 

Realistically, you'd probably have to eat a few grams to begin showing symptoms of any severity, but it majorly screws with your serum potassium levels (drops precipitously), and cause major GI issues (vomiting/diarrhea) and body-wide muscle spasms, but more worrisome is cardiac rhythm abnormalities that can kill ya (it interferes with calcium channels in cardiac muscle that keep the heart beating normally). Interestingly, one of the clinical therapies for accidental ingestion is immediate administration of high-dose potassium, so if ya eat a bundle then you might want to follow it up with a few spoonfuls of KNO₃, or, in a pinch, just chow down on a small pile of BP!!!

 

Some interesting case histories of oral poisoning are available at the Natl Library of Medicine's Hazardous Substance Data Bank (https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/source/hsdb/401), if curious.

 

Should be noted that, while barium carbonate, often used as a color enhancer, is almost completely insoluble in water, it is very soluble in hydrochloric acid (stomach acid) and can then be absorbed and cause issues. Much less hazardous than barium nitrate overall though, probably. The lethal oral doses in the published literature (again available from the Natl Library of Medicine;https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/10563#section=Drug-and-Medication-Information)vary widely, with low estimates of 0.8g in one peer-reviewed paper to 6 patients that ate 133g each by accident (hospital tech thought it was barium sulfate!), and survived, while another died after eating 53g. While David enlightened us on the metallic taste of barium nitrate like a good guinea pig accidental connoisseur, barium carbonate is reported has no taste.

 

For those of you familiar with "barium enemas" or oral drinks for use as a contrast agent for CT imaging the gastrointestinal tract because it's great at absorbing X-rays, the substance used is barium sulfate, which is neither soluble in water or most dilute acids and barely absorbed in the GI tract, if at all. The FDA labeling cites rare GI and systemic toxicity possibilities, particularly if you have ulcers or other "openings" in your gut piping. I wouldn't inhale it the powder, though, because that's a whole new set of uncertain problems

 

David, again, tx for sharing your experiences!

[MinamotoKobayashi]

I wish to add also that heavy metals like barium, strontium, lead, antimony, mercury, chrome, cadmium, arsenic, bismuth, but also aluminum is accumulated

inside ours body day bay day.

We live in a heavy contaminated environment, and we absorb and accumulate more toxic substances within us than our body is able to excrete.

The result? inflammations, degenerative diseases, alzheimer, tumor. I personally help my body to purify from the heavy metals and radioactivity

with activated Zeolite and chlorella algae, as well as a series of natural and organic supplements that help my body to defend itself from the dangers

of modern civilization.

Edited August 19, 2020 by MinamotoKobayashi

[dangerousamateur]

The question I wanted to solve is if ball milling really pays off compared to coffegrinder/blender solutions.

The latter is so much more effective...

 

I dont have good testing sieves to draw proper conclusions...

 

I course I work outside. And I must admit I never wore a mask for this, but was aware not to get in the cloud to much. Working outside this is not difficult with a little wind...

 

FP2 Masks are lying around thanks to corona, maybe they help atr least a little.

[SharkWhisperer]

DA,

 

Yeah, this strayed from topic. Grind away!! You should be good to go. Pay attention the wind. Outside the cloud might not be so visible. Grinding will get you the fineness you want for most applications I can imagine. The mask should help. Wash your hands after de-gloving and pay attention not to rub eyes/lick fingers, and you will be fine. Like the flammability hazards of some chems and almost all comps, just have respect, in this case for toxicity. There's many thousand Chicoms building barium-based green effects for all of your 1.3 and 1.4 goodies, and obviously they're not all dropping from barium-induced heart attacks. Unlike chems like KNO₃ and sodium benzoate, both of which have use as food additives, barium just requires a little more caution. But not paranoia. Also, try not to breathe too much barium-laden fumes from devices if you're exposed to a lot of smoke (ground effects/gerbs etc); stay upwind.

 

Eventually, sooner vs later, you're going to want a decent set of screens, whether purchased, repurposed, or homemade.The dollar stores often sell low-quality round stainless bacon grease screens for fry pans. You'd have to measure yours (easy) but they're usually around 30-40 mesh. Spaghetti colanders/drainers are larger mesh size (maybe 10-20?). And they only cost a buck, so they're disposable. I personally use my 4 & 8 mesh (hardware cloth from HD or local hardware store), 10, 20, and 40 mesh screens more than anything. The 60 and 100 only see occasional use. Hardware cloth is cheap (paid $5 +tax for 5 x 2 feet; had to special order 1/8" 8-mesh though). Smaller screen can be bought unmounted from McMaster and other companies, or already mounted in either smaller 6" diameter or 12" diameter that fits 5-gallon buckets from cannonfuse.com (and many others) for not too much loot. In a pinch, you can get away with repurposed kitchen implements for many primary uses. Many pyros have successfully gone for years using a rag-tag mess of a few select screens, but eventually you'll realize the worth and benefits of having multiple stackable screens, whether round or mounted on square/rectangular simple wooden boxes. They'll get a lot of use and last a long time if not abused too badly.

 

Have fun. Stay safe.

[Carbon796]

Thats going to depend on your batch size and your ballmill size. Common use nitrates are very easy to process. When components have a more gummy texture, that you want to mill. The coffee grinder mills are usually extremely frustrating to use, or just not effective.

 

My standard color batch size is 18lbs, so I'm usually prep-ing 9lbs or more of either nitrate at a time. A modified HF mill or coffee grinder just isn't efficient in my case. Not that it couldn't be done, if you have the time or patience for it. For me, a ball mill produces a better product, at a better rate, with less effort.

[kleberrios]

Very basic question, I'd like to know how you people usually handle this.

 

Normally I dry it (not the Ba, just the Sr), and give it a run in a coffee grinder.

Then I store it airtight in a "ready to use box"

 

There will be little lumping, but this breaks up when sieving the composition together.

 

 

Now I am into go getters and speed is an issue. Thats when I started to wonder if ball milling the nitrate is worth the effort?

 

 

 

 

 

 

ATRITTOR MILL. No blades, only some axes . The balls make the work. You can mill magal at 600 mesh with kerosene very quikly. Al bright, Titanium (with biger balls with water inside) , black AL, ....There is no space for dust accumulation inside the mill, as in ball mills. It can be jacketed water-cooled over long grinding periods. For wet salts there is no jamming on your wall as with ball mill. for grinding pvc (home made),teflon, charcoal, the material does not float on the spheres like ball mill. From time to time we can observe how the grinding is performing, adding or removing the spheres or the product.

https://youtu.be/h9KaxMdu3V4

[SharkWhisperer]

Well, well, if it isn't good ol' Kleb. Never shares. But never misses an opportunity to advertise his shit for sale or promote his online videos. How much are you selling the technology or units for these days? Arse.

[kleberrios]

Well, well, if it isn't good ol' Kleb. Never shares. But never misses an opportunity to advertise his shit for sale or promote his online videos. How much are you selling the technology or units for these days? Arse.

 

This mill was not what I invented, it was simply an industrial secret until I posted it on this forum. And if you didn't notice, I am using a small bench drill, which many have at home, and did not know that it plays the role of an attritor super mill.

[davidh]

You wanna know what the better-informed amateur pyros use to mill chemicals? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Automatic-Continuous-Hammer-Mill-Herb-Grinder-Herb-Mill-Pulverizer-15kg-h-DF-15/173092923827?hash=item284d2469b3:g:F~MAAOSw-uhaWFbe

[kleberrios]

You wanna know what the better-informed amateur pyros use to mill chemicals? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Automatic-Continuous-Hammer-Mill-Herb-Grinder-Herb-Mill-Pulverizer-15kg-h-DF-15/173092923827?hash=item284d2469b3:g:F~MAAOSw-uhaWFbe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yOUaofMsMw&t=3s

 

 

It is the same mill that I have,

it is for continuous grinding, only smaller. What defines the mesh of the product to be milled is the perforated sheet canvas it uses, but for more super fine powders it is not indicated, because if you use a 100, 150, 200 or 325 mesh fabric it tears or clogs

 

 

 

 

In fact, each mill has its pros and cons. We must choose the one that best suits us.

Edited August 21, 2020 by kleberrios

[zoey]

I wonder how people managed before such appliances were available.

[davidh]

I wonder how people managed before such appliances were available.

I read that it was mostly stamp mills. May still be in commercial production. Stamp mills are old.

[rogeryermaw]

Well, well, if it isn't good ol' Kleb. Never shares. But never misses an opportunity to advertise his shit for sale or promote his online videos. How much are you selling the technology or units for these days? Arse.

do you really need to be spoon fed? have you no creativity of your own?

[robbo]

Apparently not.

[kleberrios]

I read that it was mostly stamp mills. May still be in commercial production. Stamp mills are old.

My Stamp Mill don't mill salts, only Metals. Mg, Titânium, Fe, Magnalium, Aluminium, FeTi, and Wolkswagen Mg Alloy parts.

 

https://youtu.be/lfe1zG4IOTQ

[kleberrios]

My Stamp Mill don't mill salts, only Metals. Mg, Titânium, Fe, Magnalium, Aluminium, FeTi, and Wolkswagen Mg Alloy parts.

 

 

https://youtu.be/mxPKRyDeHcE

Edited August 26, 2020 by kleberrios

[FlaMtnBkr]

https://youtu.be/mxPKRyDeHcE

 

Kleberrios, it's a shame to see your videos are gone! Please don't let a few ignorant spoil the forums for you. What they obviously don't understand, or don't care, is that English is a second language for you and I imagine we are from vastly different cultures where they ignorantly assume your sharing is merely boasting and salesmanship instead of the reality that you are sharing and showing a different way or how things are done in other cultures. I suspect they have no idea what it's like coming from a place that has more poverty and where things aren't available in 2 days with the click of a mouse or a minute drive to one of a dozen stores. Or why you might be hesitant to share things that is your livelihood and could potentially take money from your pocket. I also imagine you have only sold a few things from all your years posting here and you aren't doing so in an attempt to sell stuff and that you have a very different supply and sales chain in your part of the world.

 

Keep posting and don't let a few miserable people run you off!

[rogeryermaw]

agreed. don't let trolls ruin things for you. people who develop a method should not be pressured into giving it up for everyone. if you did the work, you deserve the reward. people asking to be spoon fed free ideas don't belong in a pyro shop. sometimes it is enough to know something can be done to inspire one to make it happen.