HHO rocket engine

[PHI]

It would be possible to make a rocket engine that works with Hho?

 

My idea is this, you could store Hho in pressure jars (like a spray) maybe it would be safer to store hydrogen and oxygen separately.

Then a combustion chamber with a laval nozzle into which hydrogen and oxygen are injected from the rear

 

An electric ignition system should also be inside the chamber.

 

Both the ignition system and the gas injection could be controlled by an arduino or rapsbery pi.

 

Would this be possible?

I see problems in getting the gas to pressurize into a container.

Maybe I also don't get too much thrust, because I don't think it is possible to introduce hydrogen / oxygen in a liquid state, it should be gaseous, which increases the volume.

 

Thank you for reading

Edited March 31, 2020 by PHI

[Arthur]

So, you want to make a stoichiometric gas mixture, but hope it's going to burn slowly, well by rocket speeds?

[JMan]

Well, you just described the space shuttles engines. Im going to guess (by the way you talk about it) that you dont have much experience with it. You defiantly do not want to store both of them into the same pressure vessel. Not only will the flame go right into the storage tank and make a bomb, but compressing hho gas with standard compressing equipment will cause it to heat enough to ignite while being compressed.

 

If you want to do this as a proof of concept, yes, its very possible. If youre trying to get any thrust out of this, no, not on an amateur or even club/organization scale. Liquid rockets (and compressed gas will yield nothing of value when talking about this fuel) are almost purely made by the big guys.

 

If youre interested in the concepts of how they work, Id be glad to talk about it (I am an aerospace engineer studying rocket engines in specific) or point you to some great easy to understand resources.

Edited April 2, 2020 by JMan

[WSM]

Most of the amateur liquid fueled rockets I'm aware of use LOX and either kerosene or alcohol (ethanol). These are complex systems that use either helium or nitrogen to pressurize the liquids to feed the thrust chamber. There are also hypergolic (sp?) mixtures that work well without the need for specialized ignition systems. Then there are the hybrid motors with solid propellant and liquid oxidizer, but they tend to be unstable in performance.

 

I've been witness to some very good static tests up to +- 10K Lbs of thrust (and possibly more, I don't recall), and a few successful flights. See rrs.org for photos and information about the Southern California amateur rocketry club, I've been a member of for several decades.

 

I've always been partial to solid propellant rockets, myself (much simpler to do).

 

WSM

[Arthur]

Once you become familiar with dealing with materials at 20 to 30 KELVIN you should have cracked the problems of storing liquid hydrogen, then there is LOX to deal with!!

[Arthur]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa4ATJGRqA0

 

The art/science/engineering of mixing fuel and oxidiser in one place to achieve thrust.

 

--well one researched video anyway!

Edited April 3, 2020 by Arthur

[PHI]

So, you want to make a stoichiometric gas mixture, but hope it's going to burn slowly, well by rocket speeds?

The burning speed should depend on the oxygen / fuel ratio, right? If you separate compound albos you could control the mix, or so I think

[PHI]

Well, you just described the space shuttles engines. Im going to guess (by the way you talk about it) that you dont have much experience with it. You defiantly do not want to store both of them into the same pressure vessel. Not only will the flame go right into the storage tank and make a bomb, but compressing hho gas with standard compressing equipment will cause it to heat enough to ignite while being compressed.

 

If you want to do this as a proof of concept, yes, its very possible. If youre trying to get any thrust out of this, no, not on an amateur or even club/organization scale. Liquid rockets (and compressed gas will yield nothing of value when talking about this fuel) are almost purely made by the big guys.

 

If youre interested in the concepts of how they work, Id be glad to talk about it (I am an aerospace engineer studying rocket engines in specific) or point you to some great easy to understand resources.

Hello, I understand.

 

I don't have much knowledge on aerospace topics, but I'm learning (I'm even thinking of studying aerospace engineering).

 

I would be very grateful if you share the resources that you mentioned to me.

 

A question about it, you say that the flame would go to the fuel tank in the case of storing hho under pressure, here I have a misconception.

I have been successfully testing an hho generator, and with it I have seen (I have not tested) that the flame can be compressed and ignited as a torch (why in this case the cell does not explode?).

 

I mean, what is the physical principle so that a flammable gas with x pressure, can burn without igniting the fuel tank (lighter, flamethrower, hho torch, etc ..)

 

Thank you very much for your help, friend.

[PHI]

Most of the amateur liquid fueled rockets I'm aware of use LOX and either kerosene or alcohol (ethanol). These are complex systems that use either helium or nitrogen to pressurize the liquids to feed the thrust chamber. There are also hypergolic (sp?) mixtures that work well without the need for specialized ignition systems. Then there are the hybrid motors with solid propellant and liquid oxidizer, but they tend to be unstable in performance.

 

I've been witness to some very good static tests up to +- 10K Lbs of thrust (and possibly more, I don't recall), and a few successful flights. See rrs.org for photos and information about the Southern California amateur rocketry club, I've been a member of for several decades.

 

I've always been partial to solid propellant rockets, myself (much simpler to do).

 

WSM

Hi WSM,

 

I agree with you that solid fuel rockets are the simplest thing, but I want to get an engine that doesn't burn so fast, my engines so far burn out in a few seconds, I would like to get an engine that would allow more controlled thrust in a longer time.

 

a greeting

[JMan]

PHI, if you want a motor with any power, it will burn very fast. Maybe youd be more interested in end burners.

 

I dont have any specific resources that you cant just find online (mostly on YouTube by Scott Manley, good for people just getting into the scene of rockets).

 

Im actually big into HHO generators and similar contraceptions, Ive made a nitrogen liquefier as well in hopes of making liquid oxygen for similar reasons. The HHO generators you are speaking of separate the hydrogen and oxygen, the anode and cathode make each gas separately and, if you do enough planning, you can completely separate these gasses and store only the hydrogen, and when it exits the container, it has enough oxygen to burn fairly clean. Ive seen some people (codys lab has some good videos, he truly knows what he is doing) who know what theyre talking about when dealing with it, and others who are a blessing away from blowing their hands off trying to make a torch like you speak of. The main principle is, if the fuel (hydrogen) has an oxidizer (oxygen) in contact with it, it can, and will burn if exposed to a flame (yes there are a few more conditions like threads hold temperatures and flash point and pressure) but hydrogen and oxygen are very basic, if you hydrogen, and it is touching oxygen, it will burn and explode. The flame has a very very good chance of traveling into the nozzle and back up the line (which it may not even make it to the tank before it blows the line apart) and leave you not wanting to ever store flammable gasses under pressure for the rest of your life.

 

Even if you think you have the gasses separated, you would need to flush the tank/lines quite a few times with hydrogen to make sure NO oxygen is left anywhere in the closed system. If you were to take an empty propain tank, full it to 60 psi with hydrogen (without flushing it first) youd have 3 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen, and if you light that line, youd kill anything within 30 feet of the tank, at least.

 

Im not trying to scare you away, but through my own research with this stuff, Ive seen people who seem confident in what they are doing and have no clue how this actually works, you seem intrigued, and hopefully you go about it the right way and truly know what you will be doing. If you are still interested, Id be happy to talk about all I know with hho, but I am not responsible for your safety, I recommend you do not try to store anything explosive under pressure. But, after all, this is America (or at least for me) and its a free country.

[FrankRizzo]

It's already in the works!

 

https://newatlas.com/space/rotating-detonation-engine-ucf-hydrogen-oxygen/

[MadMat]

The main principle is, if the fuel (hydrogen) has an oxidizer (oxygen) in contact with it, it can, and will burn if exposed to a flame (yes there are a few more conditions like threads hold temperatures and flash point and pressure) but hydrogen and oxygen are very basic, if you hydrogen, and it is touching oxygen, it will burn and explode. The flame has a very very good chance of traveling into the nozzle and back up the line (which it may not even make it to the tank before it blows the line apart) and leave you not wanting to ever store flammable gasses under pressure for the rest of your life.

 

Even if you think you have the gasses separated, you would need to flush the tank/lines quite a few times with hydrogen to make sure NO oxygen is left anywhere in the closed system. If you were to take an empty propain tank, full it to 60 psi with hydrogen (without flushing it first) youd have 3 parts hydrogen, 1 part oxygen, and if you light that line, youd kill anything within 30 feet of the tank, at least.

 

Im not trying to scare you away, but through my own research with this stuff, Ive seen people who seem confident in what they are doing and have no clue how this actually works, you seem intrigued, and hopefully you go about it the right way and truly know what you will be doing. If you are still interested, Id be happy to talk about all I know with hho, but I am not responsible for your safety, I recommend you do not try to store anything explosive under pressure. But, after all, this is America (or at least for me) and its a free country.

In every liquid, or hybrid rocket engine design I have ever seen the fuel and the oxidizer are mixed in the combustion chamber only. There is a very good reason for this!

 

[SeaMonkey]

It's already in the works!

 

Frank Rizzo,

 

The Rotating Hydrogen Oxygen Detonation Engine looks to be a

high tech improvement of the V-1 Buzz Bomb Detonation Engine

of WW2 fame. The Pulse Jet is still in use by hobbyists.

 

A re-creation of the Original

Edited May 14, 2020 by SeaMonkey

[Arthur]

Scott Manley's youtube channel has several mentions of rocket fuels and their uses, advantages and disadvantages.

 

There are lots of uses of hydrogen/oxygen fuels, BUT the limitations seem to include amongst other things handling liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen at down to 20 Kelvin (absolute temperature)

[SeaMonkey]

There are conceptual alternatives other than liquid Hydrogen and Oxygen

such as the gas operated simulated gun.

 

The fuel gas, either propane, butane or MAPP, is easily liquified at normal

temperatures under pressure while the Oxygen is simply pressurized.

 

With some ingenuity the concept could be fashioned into a rocket of

some sort, but would it be practical?

 

Solid fuels and oxidizers are ever so much easier to use.

 

I really enjoyed the video made by one of the members here that showed

a rocket emitting a series of detonations as it ascended. That was class!

Edited May 16, 2020 by SeaMonkey

[Jeffdyjeff]

Hello, I understand.

 

I don't have much knowledge on aerospace topics, but I'm learning (I'm even thinking of studying aerospace engineering).

 

I would be very grateful if you share the resources that you mentioned to me.

 

A question about it, you say that the flame would go to the fuel tank in the case of storing hho under pressure, here I have a misconception.

I have been successfully testing an hho generator, and with it I have seen (I have not tested) that the flame can be compressed and ignited as a torch (why in this case the cell does not explode?).

 

I mean, what is the physical principle so that a flammable gas with x pressure, can burn without igniting the fuel tank (lighter, flamethrower, hho torch, etc ..)

 

Thank you very much for your help, friend.

[Jeffdyjeff]

Pardon the late reply, but Im new.

What we're trying to tell you is that it wont work and youre a bad person for suggesting it!

On a serious note though, if theyre stored separately, obviously no backfire. I think the issue is that hydrogen is so light it would take too much pressure to store a reasonable amount of fuel without it being a liquid.