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Help with potassium chlorate


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#1 PHI

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Posted 19 March 2020 - 08:02 PM

Hi guys,

I'm trying to obtain potassium chlorate, but everything is a failure.

First I tried to run electrolisis.
I bought a titanium mesh(about 15x5)(no platinum, only titanium) and a titanium bar(about 20mm length and 0.1mm diameter).

I take a plastic bottle, fill it with distilled water mixed with potassium chloride(I don't heat the water, 1l of water and 100g of chloride)
Then I put the anode and cathode in the water (a output 7v and 1A mobile charger)

After a few hours the thin titanium bar had dissolved and there was no crystal in the electrolyte. (The mesh was Okey)

What's wrong here?
Can I use for electrolisis a mobile charger with Output 5v 2 A?
I used the same with a mobile charger Output 5v 0.5A and nothing happens, no bubbles, nothing.
I read that mmo anodes is a good option, can I use titanium for anode?

Seccond attempt was boiling bleach, around 1 litter, wait until only remains 0.4 liters.

Later, I take a about 0.4 liters of distilled water, boiling the water, disolve around 160g of potassium chloride with the water.

Next, remove the water and put it in a glass bottle where i had the remained bleach.

When I drop the water a reaction occurs, a lot of smoke and a very bad smell.

The color of the mixed vas a dark brown, like burned things(no Cristal appeared). What happen here? I used an stainless recipe for bolining(this recipe had traces of burnt cornmeal that were removed after that)
I put it in a ice bath all night, and morning nothing, only find at bottom a powder(I think it's chloride)

I dropped it.

Edited by PHI, 19 March 2020 - 08:05 PM.

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#2 Thenupp

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 07:50 AM

You cant use titanium as an anode.

Titanium forms and oxide layer that doesn't conduct electricity.

 

Use can use MMO/Pt/Graphite as an anode.

MMO would probably the best because it doesnt corrode as badly as graphite and isn't expensive like the Pt


Edited by Thenupp, 20 March 2020 - 07:54 AM.

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#3 PHI

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 02:36 PM

You cant use titanium as an anode.
Titanium forms and oxide layer that doesn't conduct electricity.
 
Use can use MMO/Pt/Graphite as an anode.
MMO would probably the best because it doesnt corrode as badly as graphite and isn't expensive like the Pt

Hi,

First of all thank you for your time.
Second, I have a few questions.
I can't find mmo anodes, I found this on aliexpres but I think it's fake because it's very inexpensive.

https://a.aliexpress.com/_BUhq2z

Can I use this as anode and titanium as cathode?

This is suitable for cathode?
https://a.aliexpress.com/_BPRhrj


The geometric form for the anode must be always a mesh for catode and cilinder for anode?

I'm using a mobile charger for current.
It have written (5v and 2 A), it's Okey?

Thank you for you time,
Regards.

Edited by PHI, 20 March 2020 - 02:41 PM.


#4 Arthur

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Posted 20 March 2020 - 02:53 PM

Saturated solution of brine, maybe KCl. MMO anode -Mesh usually crops up on ebay but Covid19 is screwing with postal services.  Titanium sheet as cathode, make sure that the surface area is according to Swede's figures and the current density is good enough. Make sure that the cell can run for at least 100 hours, or 200 without being disturbed.

 

KClO3 should drop out of solution and sit in the bottom of the jar til you syphon it out, and replace with more KCl



#5 WSM

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 05:29 AM

Hi,
First of all thank you for your time.
Second, I have a few questions.
I can't find mmo anodes, I found this on aliexpres but I think it's fake because it's very inexpensive.
https://a.aliexpress.com/_BUhq2z
Can I use this as anode and titanium as cathode?
This is suitable for cathode?
https://a.aliexpress.com/_BPRhrj
The geometric form for the anode must be always a mesh for catode and cilinder for anode?
I'm using a mobile charger for current.
It have written (5v and 2 A), it's Okey?
Thank you for you time,
Regards.

 

The platinized titanium anode might work for a short time, but the platinum layer is probably VERY thin (maybe one to five microns thick) and may not last very long, depending on your setup.

 

The titanium rod you show (grade 5) is alloyed with aluminum and vanadium, and doesn't make a good cathode. CP (commercially pure) titanium is much better for a cathode and won't add unwanted ions to your cell. Look for grades 1 through 4 titanium (all CP grade).

 

Be sure to connect your positive DC source to the anode, and the negative to the cathode. I got the sense you may have reversed them, from your comments (hopefully not, though).

 

MMO may be expensive, but it will yield a LOT of oxidizer very cleanly, so it's a very good value for the investment.

 

Arthur's right, The use of potassium chloride brine should be the best way to produce potassium chlorate with a proper MMO/CP titanium electrode set.

 

I hope these suggestions help you get on the right path. Good luck.

 

WSM B)


Edited by WSM, 21 March 2020 - 05:33 AM.

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#6 PHI

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 02:27 PM

Saturated solution of brine, maybe KCl. MMO anode -Mesh usually crops up on ebay but Covid19 is screwing with postal services.  Titanium sheet as cathode, make sure that the surface area is according to Swede's figures and the current density is good enough. Make sure that the cell can run for at least 100 hours, or 200 without being disturbed.
 
KClO3 should drop out of solution and sit in the bottom of the jar til you syphon it out, and replace with more KCl


Hi Arthur, first tank you for your time.
I'm using salt without sodium 0%.
I'm going to buy a mmo anode(I'm looking for it) and a graphite anode(for testing).
When I have it I will publish in the forum the results :).

What's is Swede's figure?

And how I know if the current density is good if I'm using mobile charger 5v?

Thanks

#7 PHI

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 02:35 PM

 
The platinized titanium anode might work for a short time, but the platinum layer is probably VERY thin (maybe one to five microns thick) and may not last very long, depending on your setup.
 
The titanium rod you show (grade 5) is alloyed with aluminum and vanadium, and doesn't make a good cathode. CP (commercially pure) titanium is much better for a cathode and won't add unwanted ions to your cell. Look for grades 1 through 4 titanium (all CP grade).
 
Be sure to connect your positive DC source to the anode, and the negative to the cathode. I got the sense you may have reversed them, from your comments (hopefully not, though).
 
MMO may be expensive, but it will yield a LOT of oxidizer very cleanly, so it's a very good value for the investment.
 
Arthur's right, The use of potassium chloride brine should be the best way to produce potassium chlorate with a proper MMO/CP titanium electrode set.
 
I hope these suggestions help you get on the right path. Good luck.
 
WSM B)


Hi WSM, thanks for your reply.
I'm a noob, and I want to learn.

For an mmo anode can you give me an stimated price? I'm looking for it and I don't want to buy a fake one.

Can I use a salt with 0% sodium?
And I have a dude about the source, can I use a mobile charger (5v and 2 Amperes)?I know that I need calculate the number of Amperes / hour,(Culombs) based on the surface of my anode, but I don't know how do that.

Thank you so much.
Best wishes

#8 Arthur

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Posted 21 March 2020 - 02:50 PM

The power supply is best chosen for it's ability to drive 20 -50 amps continuously. Forget re-purposing something from another function,

 

https://www.ebay.co....-6/293468591649

https://www.ebay.co....er/392324999345

 

Start by searching logical market places.

Second, READ all of Swede's posts and blogs

 

Pick items made from CP1 or CP2 Titanium,

 

Be very aware that the current world pandemic has messed with everyone's delivery times.

 

For most amateur cells a 25A current for a week is reasonable. working at 2A means you will have got OLDER while waiting for the amphours to pass 


Edited by Arthur, 21 March 2020 - 03:28 PM.


#9 WSM

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 09:35 AM

Hi WSM, thanks for your reply.
I'm a noob, and I want to learn.
For an mmo anode can you give me an stimated price? I'm looking for it and I don't want to buy a fake one.
Can I use a salt with 0% sodium?
And I have a dude about the source, can I use a mobile charger (5v and 2 Amperes)?I know that I need calculate the number of Amperes / hour,(Culombs) based on the surface of my anode, but I don't know how do that.
Thank you so much.
Best wishes

 

 

Hi PHI,

 

I can help better if I know a few details.

  1. What part of the world are you in? If you're in the US, I know of several sources of supply. If other places, not as much.
  2. Sodium is NOT a requirement for making potassium chlorate, in fact, Avoiding sodium is recommended. Potassium chloride (the purer, the better) is the best approach.
  3. A clean, DC source is best; my best DC power supply is a lab type with constant current (CC) ability. CC mode isn't required, but it's handy for estimating total run times and calculating cell efficiency. There's a lot of details about power supplies in the (per)chlorate thread, and a casual reading of it will reveal a lot of discussion about them (either bought or built). Read my blog for some explanation of a few of my projects.

Let me know.

 

WSM B)



#10 PHI

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 05:45 PM

The power supply is best chosen for it's ability to drive 20 -50 amps continuously. Forget re-purposing something from another function,
 
https://www.ebay.co....-6/293468591649
https://www.ebay.co....er/392324999345
 
Start by searching logical market places.
Second, READ all of Swede's posts and blogs
 
Pick items made from CP1 or CP2 Titanium,
 
Be very aware that the current world pandemic has messed with everyone's delivery times.
 
For most amateur cells a 25A current for a week is reasonable. working at 2A means you will have got OLDER while waiting for the amphours to pass 


Hi Arthur,
Thanks for your comment.
I'm going to buy this anode.whrn I receive it I will publish the result in the forum.

Thanks 😊

#11 PHI

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 06:14 PM

Hi PHI,
 
I can help better if I know a few details.

  • What part of the world are you in? If you're in the US, I know of several sources of supply. If other places, not as much.
  • Sodium is NOT a requirement for making potassium chlorate, in fact, Avoiding sodium is recommended. Potassium chloride (the purer, the better) is the best approach.
  • A clean, DC source is best; my best DC power supply is a lab type with constant current (CC) ability. CC mode isn't required, but it's handy for estimating total run times and calculating cell efficiency. There's a lot of details about power supplies in the (per)chlorate thread, and a casual reading of it will reveal a lot of discussion about them (either bought or built). Read my blog for some explanation of a few of my projects.
Let me know.
 
WSM B)

Hi WSM,


Thanks for your reply.
I am not from the United States, I am from Europe.

I was reading your blog like you said and it's amazing. I think it is the best place to learn about chlorate that I have seen. Congratulations
If I can ask? Are you a chemist or similar? Because everything you know surprises me.

Secondly, I am not a native English speaker, so sometimes I get confused with reading, when I talk about sodium-free salt, I mean potassium chlorate (98%) or so it puts at least. I have a supermarket near my house that sells it at a good price.


Now I am going to buy the Mmo anode and the titanium cathode recommended by @Arthur, I hope this works well.

I will inform you of the news.

Thank you very much for your time.

#12 WSM

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Posted 22 March 2020 - 11:04 PM

Hi WSM,
Thanks for your reply.
I am not from the United States, I am from Europe.
I was reading your blog like you said and it's amazing. I think it is the best place to learn about chlorate that I have seen. Congratulations
If I can ask? Are you a chemist or similar? Because everything you know surprises me.
Secondly, I am not a native English speaker, so sometimes I get confused with reading, when I talk about sodium-free salt, I mean potassium chlorate (98%) or so it puts at least. I have a supermarket near my house that sells it at a good price.
Now I am going to buy the MMO anode and the titanium cathode recommended by @Arthur, I hope this works well.
I will inform you of the news.
Thank you very much for your time.

 

 

I'm a high voltage electrician, by trade; and an amateur chemist, machinist, writer, et cetera, for fun.

 

Potassium chloride is an excellent starting point for making potassium chlorate. Several sources may be found. I've used potassium based water softening salt, and I'm told an impure form for agriculture is available as well, which requires purification before it can be used.

 

Good luck.

 

WSM B)



#13 MadMat

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 10:46 AM

There is a point I would like to make regarding voltage. If some one were to ask me what voltage they should run their cell at, my answer would, seriously, be; whatever voltage it takes to get the required current. Other than surpassing the over-potential of a perchlorate reaction, voltage is inconsequential. Current is what creates the desired oxidation of the chloride ions in the electrolyte. The voltage needed to achieve the desired current will vary because of many factors. Just to name a few; the resistance of the electrolyte, the distance between the anode and the cathode (kind of related to the resistance of the electrolyte), the type of material the anode and cathode is composed of, hell if you really want to get technical the interface of the surface of the anode (and cathode) and the electrolyte will create a weak PN junction and therefore resistance. So with all those variables to contend with current, or more specifically the current density on the anode is a much better parameter for any electrolytic cell. Current density is a very common term used in electrochemistry. Though I am by no means an expert in making perchlorate, I did work for several years in the laboratory at an electroplating company and have a good understanding of electrochemistry



#14 PHI

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 11:10 AM

 
 
I'm a high voltage electrician, by trade; and an amateur chemist, machinist, writer, et cetera, for fun.
 
Potassium chloride is an excellent starting point for making potassium chlorate. Several sources may be found. I've used potassium based water softening salt, and I'm told an impure form for agriculture is available as well, which requires purification before it can be used.
 
Good luck.
 
WSM B)


Hi WSM,

Im going to use a salt with contains 98% of potassium chlorate, it think this is enough?

Regards

#15 PHI

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 11:24 AM

There is a point I would like to make regarding voltage. If some one were to ask me what voltage they should run their cell at, my answer would, seriously, be; whatever voltage it takes to get the required current. Other than surpassing the over-potential of a perchlorate reaction, voltage is inconsequential. Current is what creates the desired oxidation of the chloride ions in the electrolyte. The voltage needed to achieve the desired current will vary because of many factors. Just to name a few; the resistance of the electrolyte, the distance between the anode and the cathode (kind of related to the resistance of the electrolyte), the type of material the anode and cathode is composed of, hell if you really want to get technical the interface of the surface of the anode (and cathode) and the electrolyte will create a weak PN junction and therefore resistance. So with all those variables to contend with current, or more specifically the current density on the anode is a much better parameter for any electrolytic cell. Current density is a very common term used in electrochemistry. Though I am by no means an expert in making perchlorate, I did work for several years in the laboratory at an electroplating company and have a good understanding of electrochemistry


Hi MadMat,

I have 0 knowledge about this, and I'm very grateful for your help you are all giving me.

Respect to voltage, because I have no idea abou electrolisis I bought an supply power 5v 30A 150KW.
I bought this because WSM said in his blog that ideal voltage is 3.1 or 3.3 I don't remember but 5 is Okey.
And Arthur said that 25 Amperes is aceptable.

Now,i have one question about that.
Electrolisis cell acts as resistance, true?
The intensity that the electrolyte travels should not be 5 volts divided by the resistance in ohms?

What are those 30 amps for and how will they differ if instead of 30 they were 20 or 40?

#16 MadMat

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Posted 23 March 2020 - 06:51 PM

I could write many paragraphs but to make things short; depending on the size of your anodes and cathodes a cell run at a surprising amount of amperage. So, a power supply that cannot provide the current being drawn by the cell will be a very short lived power supply. Not to mention, most power supplies run more efficiently and produce cleaner power (ripple factor) when they are capable of providing more than is required by the cell. In short, with power supplies, within reason, bigger is always better


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#17 abc159201

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 01:16 AM

Hi MadMat,

I have 0 knowledge about this, and I'm very grateful for your help you are all giving me.

Respect to voltage, because I have no idea abou electrolisis I bought an supply power 5v 30A 150KW.
I bought this because WSM said in his blog that ideal voltage is 3.1 or 3.3 I don't remember but 5 is Okey.
And Arthur said that 25 Amperes is aceptable.

Now,i have one question about that.
Electrolisis cell acts as resistance, true?
The intensity that the electrolyte travels should not be 5 volts divided by the resistance in ohms?

What are those 30 amps for and how will they differ if instead of 30 they were 20 or 40?

 

The cell does have internal resistance, but it doesn't act like a resistor. 
5 Volt power supply is good for chlorate cell. And you can choose as large as you can. 50A~60A model is the best IMO.

You can adjust the current by two ways. One is adjust the voltage , another is adjust the surface area of your cathode(or anode  but I don't recommended).

 

I'm not very familiar with  aliexpress shop. I bought my anode from TAOBAO and the quality is decent. But for now, the anode price become very high(4x the price compare to 2018) due to coronavirus.



#18 PHI

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 07:24 AM

I could write many paragraphs but to make things short; depending on the size of your anodes and cathodes a cell run at a surprising amount of amperage. So, a power supply that cannot provide the current being drawn by the cell will be a very short lived power supply. Not to mention, most power supplies run more efficiently and produce cleaner power (ripple factor) when they are capable of providing more than is required by the cell. In short, with power supplies, within reason, bigger is always better


My calc is.
Anode and cathode have the same size.
12 inches^2
@WSM said in his blog, that 0.3A per cm^2.
That is 12 * 6.45 *0.3 = 23.22 A
For two cathode I think you mast multiply this number by 2,but for only one cathode(my case) I think this is Okey.

In this blog, @WSM recommends that supply power don't trespasse 80%.
I have a power supply of 30A, 80% of 30A is 24, so 23.22 < 24.

Is this Okey? Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know...

#19 PHI

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 07:27 AM

 
The cell does have internal resistance, but it doesn't act like a resistor. 
5 Volt power supply is good for chlorate cell. And you can choose as large as you can. 50A~60A model is the best IMO.
You can adjust the current by two ways. One is adjust the voltage , another is adjust the surface area of your cathode(or anode  but I don't recommended).
 
I'm not very familiar with  aliexpress shop. I bought my anode from TAOBAO and the quality is decent. But for now, the anode price become very high(4x the price compare to 2018) due to coronavirus.


Adjust voltage? If you need 5v how I can adjust voltage.

I don't know TAOBAO, but I thing this is a good website to buy materials.

#20 WSM

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Posted 24 March 2020 - 08:00 AM

Hi WSM,
I'm going to use a salt with contains 98% of potassium chlorate (?), it think this is enough?
Regards

 

 

That sounds acceptable (you DO mean potassium chloride, right?). I've found that once you dissolve the salt, if you filter the resulting solution, visible contaminants are often removed. Just use the clear solution.

 

If further purification is needed, adding some potassium carbonate solution (usually a small percentage by volume), will tend to drop unseen calcium, magnesium and iron contaminants, out of solution as flocculant precipitates which can be filtered out. 

 

There are several other details to this purification process which will ensure success, plus yield very pure results and better-than-commercial grade oxidizers. I can explain in detail if needed...

 

WSM B)


Edited by WSM, 24 March 2020 - 08:01 AM.





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