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how much current should chlorate cell must have?


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#1 djcruzer

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 01:16 AM

hi i upgrade my cell from 500ml to 2.5 liters and by using my old mmo for anode and cathode and when i check it with clamp meter current rating is up to 5.2 Amps running in the electrolyte...
In this setup how much efficient it is? and in this 2.5 liters cell how many days should chlorate start to form?are my current enough for this cell if not how much current it should be?

and iam using psu with 32Amp maximum output but only 5.2 Amp is running inthe solution...

sorry iam just new in making chlorate in this large quantity your advised will be helpful...

Edited by djcruzer, 11 January 2020 - 01:29 AM.

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#2 Thenupp

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 08:02 AM

is the solution saturated with KCl? 



#3 djcruzer

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 09:52 AM

is the solution saturated with KCl? 

yes

#4 Arthur

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 10:53 AM

The current is an indicator of time to completion, BUT the current should/must be limited to a value suited to the size of the electrodes, (too high a current then the electrodes erode badly and shed the MMO). The cell volume should not affect the current flowing if the power system is the same as when using the smaller container.

 

Check carefully what voltage is applied to the electrodes and what voltage is being dropped across wires and junctions. To get 32A at low voltage means really fat wires and really good connections.



#5 djcruzer

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 11:03 AM

The current is an indicator of time to completion, BUT the current should/must be limited to a value suited to the size of the electrodes, (too high a current then the electrodes erode badly and shed the MMO). The cell volume should not affect the current flowing if the power system is the same as when using the smaller container.
 
Check carefully what voltage is applied to the electrodes and what voltage is being dropped across wires and junctions. To get 32A at low voltage means really fat wires and really good connections.

may i ask if titanium can be use as anode and electrode?

#6 Arthur

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 12:34 PM

Anode is MMO/DSA

Cathode is usually Titanium



#7 WSM

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 02:16 PM

may i ask if titanium can be use as anode and electrode?

 

You can ask, but the answer is No (and yes). Bare titanium won't work as an anode, but will work as a cathode (and BOTH are electrodes). 

 

In a cell with only titanium electrodes, it would disassociate the water to hydrogen and oxygen until the "anode" (positive electrode) would disintegrate or fail in some other fashion. The best way to get chlorates is by using MMO or some analogous coating for an anode. The proper titanium to use for cathodes or a substrate for anodes is CP (Commercially Pure) titanium, alloys are problematic at best.

 

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#8 WSM

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 02:17 PM

Anode is MMO/DSA

Cathode is usually Titanium

 

Correct, in modern setups.

 

WSM B)



#9 WSM

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 02:25 PM

hi i upgrade my cell from 500ml to 2.5 liters and by using my old mmo for anode and cathode and when i check it with clamp meter current rating is up to 5.2 Amps running in the electrolyte...
In this setup how much efficient it is? and in this 2.5 liters cell how many days should chlorate start to form?are my current enough for this cell if not how much current it should be?
and iam using psu with 32Amp maximum output but only 5.2 Amp is running inthe solution...
sorry iam just new in making chlorate in this large quantity your advised will be helpful...

 

 

If nothing else has changed, it wouldn't surprise me if the cell run time were five times longer. Using larger electrodes and cables with the compatible power supply, there's no reason not to expect more material made in the same amount of time, if EVERY aspect of the cell is proportionally scaled up.

 

Can you show a photo of your setup? Perhaps we're missing something.

 

WSM B)



#10 djcruzer

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 06:17 PM

 
 
If nothing else has changed, it wouldn't surprise me if the cell run time were five times longer. Using larger electrodes and cables with the compatible power supply, there's no reason not to expect more material made in the same amount of time, if EVERY aspect of the cell is proportionally scaled up.
 
Can you show a photo of your setup? Perhaps we're missing something.
 
WSM B)

iam running this on 3 day...there is a soft crstal start to form on one side...and the amp is drop from 5.2 to 5.0...i dont know why i cant attach photos iam using cp right now..and it is on 37°C does heat affect the production?

Edited by djcruzer, 11 January 2020 - 06:49 PM.


#11 djcruzer

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Posted 11 January 2020 - 06:56 PM

The current is an indicator of time to completion, BUT the current should/must be limited to a value suited to the size of the electrodes, (too high a current then the electrodes erode badly and shed the MMO). The cell volume should not affect the current flowing if the power system is the same as when using the smaller container.
 
Check carefully what voltage is applied to the electrodes and what voltage is being dropped across wires and junctions. To get 32A at low voltage means really fat wires and really good connections.

my cell is on 37°C...does this temp good enough for chlorate production?

#12 Arthur

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 04:19 AM

37C may be part of the issue. The chlor-alkali process favours hypochlorite below 35c and makes chlorate at higher temperatures.

 

Please test and report your power supply voltage at it's terminals and your cell voltage at it's terminals and the size of your electrodes.

 

The production rate is totally dependent on the current flow. 



#13 djcruzer

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 05:10 AM

37C may be part of the issue. The chlor-alkali process favours hypochlorite below 35c and makes chlorate at higher temperatures.
 
Please test and report your power supply voltage at it's terminals and your cell voltage at it's terminals and the size of your electrodes.
 
The production rate is totally dependent on the current flow. 

there is a crystall at the bottom and i scrape some and let it dry...and tested with sugar and it burns rapidly i guess it is not hypochlorite...and i notice there are less water so i add some saturated solution and the current jump from 5 to 7...guess the temp are not bad enough...maybe the this time the higher current will heat the solution.

#14 WSM

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Posted 12 January 2020 - 09:46 AM

and i am using psu with 32 Amp maximum output but only 5.2 Amp is running in the solution...

 

 

In my experience, I've found that the cell will take what current it can use from the power supply, and no more. You can't force-feed more current than the cell circuit is able to use.

 

For example, you have a 100 Amp power supply and a cell which is sized to demand 20 Amperes. The cell will take the 20 Amps and no more. It's a self limiting circuit, and 80 Amps are still available. If you wish to use more of the power supply's capacity, you need to increase the electrode size, all the connections and the cables (everything in the entire circuit), to effectively accomplish your goal.

 

Neglecting any part of the planned circuit upgrade will limit the amount of current the entire circuit can use. Using leads that are too small, for example, will be a choke point, limiting the amount of current that can flow, even if everything else has larger capacity. It's the same if the method of connecting power cables to the electrode leads aren't large enough capacity to carry the full current of the rest of the circuit.

 

When you upgrade the volume of the cell, be sure to upgrade the entire electrical system to match it, and all will be well.

 

WSM B)

 

Edit: It's good electrical practice to design a circuit to demand no more than 80% of the power supply's capacity. Your power supply will usually run comfortably at 80%, where nearer to 100% it will struggle and possibly burn out, due to the strain.

 

Also remember, the first run of a cell uses a lot of energy creating the precursors to make chlorate ions. Recharging the used electrolyte, with its mixture of precursor ions combined with the newly added chloride ions, allows it to produce more chlorate quicker, due to the head start the precursor ions give it. So yes, the second (and more) runs of the electrolyte will produce more chlorate than the first run.
 


Edited by WSM, 13 January 2020 - 05:54 AM.





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