Barium chlorate and sulfur.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Hello.

I always used the Jopete's green formulas, with or without Barium carbonate, and never I was able to obtain a nice green.

The stars always looks with a washed pale colour.

The stars was always well and correctly dried and the nitrate was always ballmilled, so I suppose that Pyrogarage doesn't not have a

pure good Barium nitrate.

Now I wish to try this formula:

 

https://pyrodata.com/compositions/Emerald-Green

 

that promise a good emerald green (as shown in the video).

Also, it seems that this formula is not "very sensitive".

The major concern is the sulphur.

First of all, I need to prime the stars, as usually.

Every prime that I know contains sulphur, as for example Monocapa, that is a very good prime.

Second, coated rice hulls needed for 5+ inch shells also contains sulphur, and it is impossible to avoid that at least one grain

of rice hulls hit one of the stars inside the shell.

So, what is the solution? How I can avoid that chlorate react with sulphur and put myself in a serious danger situation?

Edited June 30, 2019 by MinamotoKobayashi

[Mumbles]

I normally am not concerned about sulfur coming in contact with potassium chlorate. Barium chlorate however would give me pause. It is perhaps the most sensitive somewhat common pyrotechnic material we use. If the results weren't fantastic, I actually believe it would have been phased out by now actually.

 

One quick note first. I would not use 50/50 water and alcohol to bind. Stick with mostly water if you're intending to Dextrin bind, or mostly alcohol if using red gum or subbing in something else.

 

Without any metal in there, it not going to require a super hot prime. I'd try a standard perc/charcoal/resin type prime, like pinball prime or something similar. You probably don't even need the optional metal, but it can't hurt. https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/5023-meal-other-prime-all-my-stars-prime-help/?do=findComment&comment=65784. Once this is on, it acts as a barrier. I'd have no qualms about using BP or green meal over the top of this or using BP burst.

 

Even with this, if one of your shells makes a round trip and comes back to the ground, it will still probably explode on impact.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Oh well, so if accidentally a shell fall from my working table on the ground and inside it there are stars containing Barium chlorate. the shell could explode?

It is too risky for me .. in that case I wish to forgot this mix!

 

There is some other methods to obtain a nice emerald and not pale green?

[kingkama]

I find metallic green with mgal the best ones.

60 bano3

15 mgal

15 parlon

10 dextrine

Need a strong prime but it is green.

If you want a deep green add a bit of CuO subbing to mgal(this trick is specified on color chemistry by kosanke)

 

If you like you can recristallize the barium nitrate easily dissolving it in boiling water.

 

The problem in yopete formulas may be the presence of too much hydrocarbons that produce barium idroxide in place of barium chloride.

 

Try adding chlorate or perchlorate to the upper formula subbing the nitrate until you find the color you like. (chlorate and perchlorate deepens the color)

Edited June 29, 2019 by kingkama

[davidh]

Just use a sulfur free prime, something with just KNO3 and charcoal. Chlorate stars simply don't need much prime.

[Mumbles]

Oh well, so if accidentally a shell fall from my working table on the ground and inside it there are stars containing Barium chlorate. the shell could explode?

It is too risky for me .. in that case I wish to forgot this mix!

 

There is some other methods to obtain a nice emerald and not pale green?

Not unless your table is a few hundred feet from the ground.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

x Mumbles: LOL I understand!

x DavidH: thanks, but I prefer to forgot chlorates.

x Kingkama: I tried the red composition from Jopetes and it is really a brilliant intese red, so I think that the issue could be my Barium Nitrate!

What mesh is needed for Your suggested comp?

 

Surfing around the forum I have found this interesting thread:

 

https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/7452-best-bano32-green/

 

I have found a lot of interesting formulas like these:

 

Ba(NO3)2....4parts
dark aluminium(fine).....1part
pvc....1/4 parts
sulfer...1parts
boric acid...1 to 2 percent
bind with dextrin and water.

 

...

 

Skylighter formula:

 

Barium nitrate 53%

Magnalium 19%

Parlon 17%

Red gum 11%

 

 

...

 

Barium nitrate 37
Potassium /per/chlorate 30
Mg <63µm 14
Parlon 14
Red gum 5

 

...

 

55 BaNO3
28 Magnesium
17 PVC/Parlon

5 Red Gum

 

...

 

Buell green:

 

Potassium Perchlorate 35.35

Barium Carbonate 25.25

Magnalium, granular, -200 14.14

Parlon 13.13

Red gum 7.07

Dextrin 5.05

...

Barium Nitrate 50

Parlon 18

Magnalium, granular, -325 mesh 12

Potassium Perchlorate 8

Sulfur 5

Charcoal Airfloat 5

Dextrin 5

Red Gum 2

...

Troy Fish:

Barium nitrate 0.63
Parlon 0.25
Magnalium 0.10
Red gum 0.03

Since I'm about to prepare a large batch of greenies, I wish to know if someone has tried one of this mixes and which is, in Your modest opinion,

the most brilliant deep emerald green available. I need to make rolled stars starting from 2mm lead cores.

Edited June 30, 2019 by MinamotoKobayashi

[biffo24]

I find the troy fish comp gives a lovely deep green similar if not the same without checking to some of the above formulas,lots of MgAl and parlon red gum bound. Yes got it try BaN03 63 parlon 25 MgAl 10 red gum 3 works fine for me. Good luck B Edited June 30, 2019 by biffo24

[Arthur]

Barium is used as a light emitter, it's only green with the right fuels and binders otherwise it is just bright.

[BetICouldMake1]

Barium Nitrate 50

Parlon 18

Magnalium, granular, -325 mesh 12

Potassium Perchlorate 8

Sulfur 5

Charcoal Airfloat 5

Dextrin 5

Red Gum 2

 

This is Kyle Kepley's emerald green, which is a favorite of mine and many others. Might be a good starting point. I have seen it published with slightly altered amounts:

 

Barium Nitrate 47.6

Parlon 17.1

Magnalium, granular, -325 mesh 11.4

Potassium Perchlorate 7.6

Sulfur 4.8

Charcoal, airfloat 4.8

Dextrin 4.8

Red Gum 1.9

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Thanks!

Since I see that there is both dextrin and Red Gum, I suppose that I could use a mix of 63% water and 27% alcohol, as Jopete suggest .. right?

I will try also to replace the red gum with phenolic resin cured with hexamine ...

[BetICouldMake1]

I've only made them as cut stars using the parlon as binder with acetone, but the dextrin is there to be used as the binder. I assume you mean 73/27 water:alcohol, which should work fine.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Sorry my typo. Jopetes usually suggests 63/37 if both dextrin and red gum/phenolic resin is present, at least for its compositions.

[BetICouldMake1]

There's so litte red gum in that formula that I'm not sure trying to activate it as binder will do much for you. I do know that too much alcohol can interfere with the dextrin, but I'm not positive of the levels. If I'm using dex as binder I usually stick to 75% water, the 25% alcohol just helps break the surface tension and aid drying. Edited July 2, 2019 by BetICouldMake1

[kingkama]

Red is naturally easier due to the nature of strontium nitrate, washed green color are ever an issue of : less than need chlorine donor, too high temperature that destroy barium chloride, presence of barium hidroxide.

The mesh of the mgal influence the burning time, so anything lesser than 200 in good.

[kaotch]

The red gum in Kyle's formula is used as FUEL and not as a binder. Why all that alcohol?Depending on how you make your stars a minimum of H2O should be used and therefore the compostion should rest for some time to let the dextrin activate properly. In this case the magnalium should be added as last (after the resting time) in

order to minimize H2O exposure to the metal!!!!!!

Also wonderful green colors can be made using Barium Carbonate referring to Buell Green as one.

[Mumbles]

Buell green is one of my favorites.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Ok dudes I was REALLY in pain which green formula prepare after the Jopete's green mix bad adventure, so I will try Buell green

Barium carbonate is not toxic because it is not soluble in water, right?

 

By the way, 75% water and 25% alcohol is the right choice?

 

I hope to found the right formula:

 

Potassium Perchlorate 35.35

Barium Carbonate 25.25

Magnalium 200 mesh 14.14

Parlon 13.13

Red gum 7.07

Dextrin 5.05

Edited July 3, 2019 by MinamotoKobayashi

[Mumbles]

Barium carbonate is basically just as toxic as nitrate. It's still soluble in stomach acid and can be absorbed through mucous membranes.

 

The barium should be 25.25, but yes thats right. The original formula is in pounds, and adds to 24.75 if I recall correctly, thus the odd fractions. I always use basically pure water with a trace of alcohol to break the surface tension, but use what you're familiar with.

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Oh yes 25.25 sorry my typo, corrected now

 

Do You think I can replace the Red Gum with Phenolic Resin (cured with Hexamine or not) without compromise colour quality and burn speed?

Also, I have only Magnalium 250 mesh. Can a finer mesh improve too much the burnt rate?

[JOPETES]

Hello minamotokobayasi.He usado esta fórmula muchas veces, me da un buen verde, pero mi consejo es obtener 20 gramos de carbonato de bario y bajar el cloro de goma o el parlon a 11 gramos porque si no quema demasiado carbono y genera un verde un poco sucio y demasiado mucho desperdicio De todos modos, el verde con nitrato de bario o una combinación de nitrato de bario con carbonato de bario produce un verde mejor y más limpio. Siempre le he dicho que tiene un problema con el nitrato de bario que se suministra de baja calidad.

usa magnalium 63micras (230mesch), no más grueso que 45micras (325mesch).

Jose

Edited July 3, 2019 by JOPETES

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Hi Jopetes, nice to hear You again!

It seems that I have some issues with water and Barium, while I obtain a beautiful ruby red ALSO WITH WETTED STARS!!

On the contrary, Your mix with Barium Nitrate and Barium Carbonate has a better green look when burned in dry powder.

I do not understand why, I always used distilled water and dried every layer very well, first in my handmade dehydratator for many days

until the stars do not change its weight anymore, and then for 1 hours at 70° in my electric dehydratator.

It seems that some water rests trapped inside the stars for unknown reasons.

So my next try with Your mix will be:

 

- Use Green mix formula 2 (without barium carbonate);

- Use Phenolic Resin cured with 8% of Hexamine instead Red Gum;

- Totally eliminate water and use only 50% ethyl alcohol and 50% acetone;

- Cooking the stars directly in a ventilated oven at 100°C to be sure that hexamine will be fully activated (only for green layer).

 

Of course I will isolate the heating elements to prevent radiant heat dangerous issues.

I think I will obtain enough hard stars also without activate dextrin.

Also, the green mix will be rolled internally in a multi-color star as first layer, so the sequence will be:

 

1. 2mm Lead core;

2. Strobe mix layer, rolled;

3. Monocapa layer, rolled;

4. Drying in my handmade dehydratator without heat (until the stars are totally dried);

5. Green layer (without water), rolled;

6. Drying in the electric oven at 100°C while the stars are wetted (this is important to correctly activate the Hexamine!);

7. Cool down the stars;

8. Red layer, rolled;

9. Monocapa layer, rolled;

10. Fast BP powder, rolled;

11. Drying in my handmade dehydratator without heat (until the stars are totally dried);

12. Drying in my electric dehidratator for 1 hours at 70°C.

 

... but there is the chance that some water from red mix migrate to the green mix, so I could cooking again the stars at 100 °C

to be sure that no water rests trapped inside.

... or, roll an extra layer of Monocapa as a barrier between the green and the red mix, but there is the risk to obtain too big stars!

 

Please tell me if there is something wrong in my procedure ...

Edited July 4, 2019 by MinamotoKobayashi

[kaotch]

It is strange that you cannot get a good green color with dextrin as a binder. If you follow the formula as mentioned you should get a good green.I believe you are making a mistake somewhere and you should try to find that mistake. Maybe you are using too much H2O ?!! In order to eliminate H2O totally by using a combination of phenolic resin and hexamine you should consider the following:

1) The solvent you want to use alc+acetone , both contain H2O.

2)Using a drying box for crosslinking may trap that H2O .

3) The formula does not require hexamine but this way you introduce abt 8% hexamine, which is a TRUE colour enhancer hence the color may be washed out.

Therefore if dextrin is not your way use SGRS, Phenolic Resin WITHOUT hexamine or PVB.

[JOPETES]

Hola minamotokobayasi. Tengo que escribir en español porque cuando utilizo el traductor Google produce unos errores terribles y no sé si me éstas entendiendo lo que quiero decir.

 

Vamos a ver, lo primero olvídate de sustituir la resina acroides por resina fenolica procesada con hexamina y sigue con exactitud las fórmulas y sus proporciones en gramos tal como aparece en el PDF. A continuación una vez hecha la mezcla del verde 1 o 2 debes probar a quemar una pequeña porción en seco y aplastado con una cuchara como si lo hubieras comprimido un poco y el resultado debe ser un color verde muy brillante y profundo, los dos verdes dan un color muy bueno, estoy muy seguro de mis fórmulas, si no es así, algo mal estás haciendo o alguno de los productos químicos es de baja calidad. Una vez logrado el color verde en seco puedes formar o rodar las estrellas de varios colores de una sola vez, utilizas agua/alcohol por ejemplo 70/30 para activar la dextrina y romper la tensión superficial del agua, dejas secar bien al aire libre es lo mejor, cortas una estrella por la mitad y si ves que está seca y dura quemas una en el suelo y si todo es correcto aplicas las capas o capa de cebado y asunto concluido, no hay más misterios, no te vuelvas loco!!.

 

Ya sabes que siempre estoy dispuesto a ayudarte en público o en privado.

 

José

[MinamotoKobayashi]

Hi Kaotch.

Excuse me, but if Hexamine is a true color enhancer, why the color will be washed out ??? It is a nonsense!

 

Hi Jopetes.

I tried to burn Your Green 1 formula as is, in powder form, with red gum and without phenolic resin: it is a green, not a deep emerald green, but it is a green.

In my modest opinion, it is too much faded to white.

After the burn there is a lot of ash left.

Hovewer, after wetted, rolled and dried, it become really washed.

Here You can see how much washed is the green (the colour after the explosion, before the red, that is a real red):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiuNxlqKQPg

 

Also, I tried to burn Your Red 2 formula, first with red gum, and then with phenolic resin+hexamine, in powdered form: in both the cases was

a beautiful ruby red!

 

Also, from Pyrosource Wiki:

 

"Mixtures of metal powders and barium nitrate sometimes heat up spontaneously and may ignite, especially when moist.

This can usually be prevented by the addition of small amounts of boric acid (1 to 2%). It is advisable to avoid using water to bind such

compositions. Red gum or shellac with alcohol or nitrocellulose lacquer are preferred binder and solvents (also see aluminium )."

 

So, my last chance is to find a good source of Barium nitrate.

I'm italian, so I must found am European reseller.

Usually I buy the chems from Pyrogarage, but it seems that Barium Nitrate that they sell is bad ..

Edited July 5, 2019 by MinamotoKobayashi