rellim Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 I found a Russian video on Youtube demonstrating this strobe formulation: Ba(NO3)2 68 AlMg .26 Bi2O3 3 Binder 3 I made a few sample stars with -200 + 320 MgAl and it does indeed give brilliant white flashes. Does anyone know what the effect of Bismuth Trioxide is with this formulation? Could it be effectively added to other strobe compositions? Video at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 I'm clueless. That sure is a vigorous strobe. I'm sure Mumbles or Lloyd will know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynomike1 Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Dam that beats mine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeighborJ Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 I'm gonna need to try that formula, maybe with some HCB for green. I wonder what binder? NC? Dex? I can't read russian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixRising Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 (edited) Just translated связka to "bond". At 3 percent it is most likely not dextrin. NC would likely work just fine. PVB would most likely work as well. Gum Arabic would work at 3 percent as well. If phenolic were used (which it doesn't work for all formulas) I'd use at least 4 or 5 percent, any less is too weak IMO. I would not use Red Gum in such a small amount. Most likely not Starpol (does anyone even use that stuff anymore?) If you use NC but don't have the powder form it may be difficult to roll them, so cutting an acetone patty similar to big crackle stars might suffice. All that Barium and Metal may require a decent prime too, so take that into account. Edited August 13, 2018 by PhoenixRising Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sora Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Just for the records, a Pb-Nit based strobe:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds7StW330fc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 There are also reports of colored bismuth trioxide strobes on youtube. Have a look at this NeighborJ, maybe you can save that HCB for other applications. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7i94g9ZJAs I've had these compositions on my list for a few months now, never got around to test them so I don't know how well they work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkama Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 It is the chlorate one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rellim Posted August 14, 2018 Author Share Posted August 14, 2018 A confusing comment by the author says: dextrin - 3% (wallpaper glue) I used 3% dextrin and the stars were not especially sturdy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeighborJ Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Hmm? Strobe stars are generally made quite small. A blend of dex and CMC(wallpaper glue) would likely be enough. Wheat past should also work. Adrenaline, that strobe looked more like a lithium pink than a red. Do you have the formula to post or a link to a thred? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 With good quality dextrin, 3% will do the trick for binding. If you're making it in your own oven, it might not be quite up to task. I too am stumped as to bismuth trioxide's use here. Best guess, and also wild ass guess, it's a burn rate catalyst and speeds up the effect. Whistle and strobe comps are more similar than one may thing. It's not particularly effective for whistle rockets as per Danny Creagan's testing, but maybe barium nitrate or metal based compositions are another ball game. Nitrate strobes are more strange than AP/sulfate strobes. I haven't seen many without sulfur as a major component. Has anyone tried to reproduce these stars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazy Swede Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Maybe the barium nitrate and magnesium part of the magnalium smolders during the dark phase and the bismuth trioxide and the aluminum part of the magnalium creates the flashes through a thermitic reaction? I doubt this system would lend itself to create green colored strobe with the addition of chlorine donors since bismuth usually gives a yellow color to the flame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Hmm? Strobe stars are generally made quite small. A blend of dex and CMC(wallpaper glue) would likely be enough. Wheat past should also work. Adrenaline, that strobe looked more like a lithium pink than a red. Do you have the formula to post or a link to a thred? The (alleged) formula is in the video description:Sr(NO3)2 - 75%, Bi2O3 - 5%, AlMg - 20%, PVC - up to 5% (over 100%). I'm sure that these strobes have been mentioned on APC before, but I can't seem to find the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynomike1 Posted August 14, 2018 Share Posted August 14, 2018 Looks like you could use any binder but not phenolic resin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yus Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 See here.https://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/5476-strobe-stars/?p=175900 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline Posted August 15, 2018 Share Posted August 15, 2018 Yes that's the thread! Thank you Yus.Am I right in assuming that you discovered/reverse engineered this composition? What partical size MgAl did you use in the red strobe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yus Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 At the beginning I have found Bi2O3 in chinese patent and then it was confirmed by chemical analysis (SEM, XRD) in the commercial stars.Al-Mg can be mixture between 100 and 250 mesh. http://s010.radikal.ru/i314/1711/59/3417ed2906fb.png http://s019.radikal.ru/i617/1711/59/dcef7d4d3da5.png https://www.google.com/patents/CN103601604B?cl=en Prime 1: Ba(NO3)2 - 27%, KClO4 - 33%, AlMg - 7%, S - 10%, C - 13%, binder - 10%. Prime 2: KNO3 - 60%, AlMg - 10%, S - 10%, C - 15%, binder - 5%. Prime 1 and 2 should be corrected experimentally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 Maybe the barium nitrate and magnesium part of the magnalium smolders during the dark phase and the bismuth trioxide and the aluminum part of the magnalium creates the flashes through a thermitic reaction? I doubt this system would lend itself to create green colored strobe with the addition of chlorine donors since bismuth usually gives a yellow color to the flame. Maybe I've always been thinking too glitter focused. My general thinking has always been the dark phase is build up of barium sulfate or a sulfide species, and the flash phase is the reaction with the metal. It's been known that barium and strontium nitrate burn "vibrationally" with MgAl. I could see the Mg reacting differently than the Al. MgAl glitters have always been more attractive to me, being a little more shimmery. I like your thinking, and it could have merit. Bismuth has it's own interesting effects. Bi(I) is only meta stable at higher temperatures, so maybe it is involved too. It's one of the things I've always kind of wondered about and thought about based on the applications in crackle. It is something that could be considered a dark strobe that gives off more sound than visible light. MgAl glitters and some effects like Fireflies on Cocaine/Flaming Shit Falls on You are certainly more sizzley and audible as well. It is something to ponder. Thank you Yus for that thread. Russia has been putting out a lot of interesting things. Off hand, do you know if they're using the typical 50:50 MgAl that many people are accustomed to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yus Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) I am not from Russia. I am from Ukraine! Commercial and homemade Al-Mg (1:1) are "chemically" same.They always contain brittle intermetallic phase, namely, Mg17Al12 (see phase diagram). It melts at 460'C. Edited August 16, 2018 by Yus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkama Posted August 16, 2018 Share Posted August 16, 2018 I wondering if the 3% of bismute can be substitued by the same amouth of lead trioxide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rellim Posted August 16, 2018 Author Share Posted August 16, 2018 (edited) Red and white strobe formulas have very different oxygen balances. Red is greatly over oxidized while white has a small oxygen surplus.. Edited August 16, 2018 by rellim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volas Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 I wondering if the 3% of bismute can be substitued by the same amouth of lead trioxideNo, it does not work in such a formula. These are not dragon eggs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 17, 2018 Share Posted August 17, 2018 Volas, do you know what purpose the bismuth serves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkama Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 I think It Will works,if works for Dragon egg Will works for this strobe, Dragon egg are like strobe a smoldering phase and a flash phase, the issue May be the colour output.This composition was made to avoid the bad smell of the full sulfur nitrate White strobe (that it's specified in the patent) using the bismute properties to reproduce the sulfur phased Burning. Obviusly the Will not use Pb because it's proibited in a lot of country, but chemically It Will works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted August 18, 2018 Share Posted August 18, 2018 Do you have a reference to the patent you're referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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