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Starting with Sodium chlorate to make potassium chlorate


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#1 insutama

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Posted 24 January 2018 - 11:00 PM

I had a quick question about making kclo3, I thought I remember reading that its much more efficient to use sodium chloride to make sodium chlorate and then do a double displacement with kcl to make potassium chlorate is this true would you yield more kclo3 in less electrolysis time than just starting with kcl in your electrolyte from the beginning ? I could be confusing this with something else like making perchlorate because I know when making kclo4 you want to start with sodium chloride then make Naclo3 then make NaClo4 then do the double displacement with kcl. I have looked all over the internet trying to confirm this however I cant find out if you yield more Naclo3 than you would Kclo3 in the same time with electrolysis starting with Nacl vs Kcl.



#2 Mumbles

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 08:35 AM

On a time for time or electron for electron basis, you should make about the same amount of potassium chlorate starting from either NaCl or KCl.  I don't believe the chemical efficiency is drastically different between them.  In my personal opinion, it probably makes more sense to start from potassium chloride if your final goal is potassium chlorate.  That is mostly from a purification standpoint.  Swede and WSM and a few others have demonstrated that this is a completely feasible route.  If there is any difference in yield, it would likely come from the purification steps and differing recoveries or cleanup requirements.

 

The biggest difference comes in space yield.  You can make more potassium chlorate given a set volume of a cell starting from sodium chloride.  This requires more electrolysis time though to convert the larger quantity of sodium you can get to go into a cell.  


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#3 pyrojig

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:23 AM

This topic should probably be in the (per)chlorate thread. If I recall It is like mumbles said; they are about the same in CE , but there may be a longer conversion on K salt vs Na salt in the breakdown of the chloride to chlorate. But as stated it is better from a purity standpoint to use K salt if K chlorate is the goal. I would however go with the NA salt for K perch if that is the goal. 



#4 insutama

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:38 AM

thanks for clearing that up for me



#5 PTFE

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Posted 25 January 2018 - 10:59 AM

http://www.vk2zay.ne...y=chlorates.php

here is a calculator for time-calculations of Chlorate cells.

And indeed, KCl is a bit faster.



#6 WSM

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Posted 11 February 2018 - 11:42 AM

I had a quick question about making kclo3, I thought I remember reading that its much more efficient to use sodium chloride to make sodium chlorate and then do a double displacement with kcl to make potassium chlorate is this true would you yield more kclo3 in less electrolysis time than just starting with kcl in your electrolyte from the beginning ? I could be confusing this with something else like making perchlorate because I know when making kclo4 you want to start with sodium chloride then make Naclo3 then make NaClo4 then do the double displacement with kcl. I have looked all over the internet trying to confirm this however I cant find out if you yield more Naclo3 than you would Kclo3 in the same time with electrolysis starting with Nacl vs Kcl.

 

In my experience, KCl to KClO3 is more efficient, plus there's no purification (to remove sodium contamination) required. If I have NaClO3, it's used to make NaClO4 and then other perchlorates (a much better use for it).

 

My 2 cents, anyway.

 

Good luck.

 

WSM B)



#7 Scorpion812

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Posted 13 February 2018 - 01:37 PM

 

In my experience, KCl to KClO3 is more efficient, plus there's no purification (to remove sodium contamination) required. If I have NaClO3, it's used to make NaClO4 and then other perchlorates (a much better use for it).

 

My 2 cents, anyway.

 

Good luck.

 

WSM B)

You COULD use the KClO3 from the cell as is, but I recommend recrystalizing to remove some of the chloride and destroying hypochlorite before using the chlorate. This makes the chlorate less sensitive and thus safer to use (not that its no longer a very sensitive oxidizer anymore)



#8 WSM

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 11:31 AM

You COULD use the KClO3 from the cell as is, but I recommend recrystalizing to remove some of the chloride and destroying hypochlorite before using the chlorate. This makes the chlorate less sensitive and thus safer to use (not that its no longer a very sensitive oxidizer anymore)

 

True, but if you don't try to run the cell to completion and just harvest what drops out till the current draw only goes to about 50% of the starting current; the KClO3 will be purer and more usable right out of the cell (after a chilled, distilled water rinse). The next step is to recharge the electrolyte and run the cell again.

 

Patience and good lab techniques will pay off with more product, and cleaner, too. 

 

WSM B)

 

Edit: If your starting material is purer, the finished product will be purer as long as you keep the whole process clean.


Edited by WSM, 14 February 2018 - 11:33 AM.


#9 insutama

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Posted 15 February 2018 - 09:55 AM

how long do you generally get out of a MMO electrode when making chlorate ? 



#10 WSM

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Posted 25 February 2018 - 08:36 AM

how long do you generally get out of a MMO electrode when making chlorate ? 

 

That's a good question.

 

Unfortunately, there's no simple answer.

 

It starts with the questions of where did you get the MMO, what type and quality is it and how are you treating it (what are the conditions in your particular cell setup)?

 

The short answer, that I got from a supplier of high quality MMO in the corrosion control business many years ago, is it'll last for years, if properly set up and cared for. And, sadly, it can be destroyed within a day if it's exposed to the wrong environment.

 

If you ask more specific questions relating to your particular setup, including as much detail as you can, we can try to analyze what problems you're seeing and offer suggestions for remedies. 

 

WSM B)






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