AustralianPyromaniac Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Hello all, I have been trying for a while now to find a blue composition I can make using over the counter product in Australia but haven't been having too much luck. After many failed trials with KClO3 comps I have decided that the next route I explore should be ammonium perchlorate and seeing the majority of chlorine donors have no OTC uses I am limited to comps not containing them. After searching I have found many comps such as this one which contain no Cl donor but haven't been able to find any videos of them and as such, I am highly skeptical of the results. I am posting here to ask if anyone has tried these out and what their success has been. Furthermore, if I none here have any experience would anyone be willing to make up a small test and send me the video? I only ask because if I was to make AP it would be quite an expense and I can't buy any in Aus to test. So I would be going in with no idea of the expected results. Regards, AP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzoMittle Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Well, making the expensive stuff is usually something to be avoided if you want to do this long term. So, let's start with this: what can you get? Any kind of chlorinated wax or rubber? Parlon? PVA, PVB, PVC? Sculpy clay? You should have access to something through somewhere, it's almost always a matter of digging around. Why are you using AP and KClO3? Why not KClO4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustralianPyromaniac Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) Well, making the expensive stuff is usually something to be avoided if you want to do this long term. So, let's start with this: what can you get? Any kind of chlorinated wax or rubber? Parlon? PVA, PVB, PVC? Sculpy clay? You should have access to something through somewhere, it's almost always a matter of digging around. Why are you using AP and KClO3? Why not KClO4? AzoMittle, I have accesses to almost all chlorine donors through my pyro supplier but that's not what I'm going for here. This is more of an experiment than a long term thing. Just seeing what I can and can't make. The only donor I can get OTC is Fimo which is the same as Sculpy but I've not found any blue compositions that call for it other than those that also call for AP. The reason I'm not using KClO4 is because it requires a chlorine donor as it can't provide its own Cl. As far as chems I can get or make OTC that would be useful for blue... KClO3, KP, AP, CuSO4, Copper oxychloride, dextrin, shellac, red gum, FIMO, sulfur, and CuCO3 through the reaction of NaHCO3 and CuSO4 but I'd rather not. If I think of any others I will put up an edit. Regards, AP Edited September 3, 2017 by AustralianPyromaniac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeighborJ Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 I would not try to use a compound which was made from sodium salts such as your CuCO3 for blues. There is too high a chance of sodium contamination which will wash out the blues. If you have access to potassium benzoate you can use it to make Cu benzoate with your CuSO4. If any contamination exists it will be potassium sulfate which can be painstakingly washed. The Dave Bleser "new blue" can be made with the Cu benzo: 79.2 AP, 17.4 Cu Benz, 3.4 dextrin. Prime only with a non sulfer bearing prime such as kp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustralianPyromaniac Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 Can't get potassium benzoate OTC NeighborJ. Can get sodium benzoate but as you said Na contamination. Regards, AP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeighborJ Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Potassium benzoate is used as a food preservative. It should be available somewhere, if not then benzoic acid should be available thru a bio diesel chemical supply house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogeryermaw Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Ammonium perchlorate is a fair chlorine donor on its own. It also usually produces much less ash as most of it's combustion products are gaseous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustralianPyromaniac Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) I believe that is the reason it is used for blue and it's why I'm hoping I can get away with it. I had a quick look around for the chems you mentioned NeighborJ but found none of them readily available. I'm sure I could get them and produce copper benzoate, but I don't really want to, and I think I will be able to find another way. Thanks for the help regardless! Regards, AP Edited September 3, 2017 by AustralianPyromaniac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 ... The Dave Bleser "new blue" can be made with the Cu benzo: 79.2 AP, 17.4 Cu Benz, 3.4 dextrin. Prime only with a non sulfer bearing prime such as kp. KP has sulfur in it. Did you mean a non-nitrate containing prime? NeighborJ has the right idea though. The best way to make AP stars without a chlorine donor would be to make the colorant and fuel the same source. This is why copper benzoate works so well. If you can get other organic acids or potassium salts, you might be able to find something else that works. Potassium sorbate might an option, and is available in Australia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustralianPyromaniac Posted September 5, 2017 Author Share Posted September 5, 2017 Thanks, guys, I will look into that rough. Changing the subject a little but what about chlorate stars with Sculpey/ FIMO as their chlorine donor? I didn't find any but maybe someone would know of one? Regards, AP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeighborJ Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 One other product to look at is Saran wrap/static wrap/cling film whatever you want to call it. The cheap-o varieties are roughly 50-50 PVC-Saran. It could be used as a chlorine donor perhaps if it were dissolved. This is a quote from mumbles 2008. This could be of some interest to you. Mumbles, I did notice my sulfer/nitrate error after I checked the thread but AP wasn't interested in that star so I left it be. I'll try to fix those mistakes in the future for other readers. Jason 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustralianPyromaniac Posted September 5, 2017 Author Share Posted September 5, 2017 I believe I heard somewhere that cling wrap is no longer a viable chlorine donor because the composition was changed although I'm not sure where this was. Mumbles, could you comment on this? Regards, AP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeighborJ Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 Bumped the thread for you AP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 That's true about the cling wrap. Several companies are moving toward a polyethylene based film now due to fears or environmental concerns over chlorinated plastics. It's a shame mostly because it works like garbage and has much worse oxygen permeability. I don't know of any brands or sources off hand for the Saran/PVC version, but believe it is still available, at least with some effort. It might not be that useful or much of a lead, but there are a few reports of it being used for specialty cheeses still. That might give a little direction in trying to find it. While on OTC sources, Parlon is used as a sealant in some paints and sealants for swimming pools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted September 5, 2017 Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) PVC must be available by the 20kilo bag from a plastics supplier in an industrial area, Shredded PVC pipe or glue will contain little PVC as most compounds in practical use are about 50% compounding additives and stabilisers. Blues with copper salts tend to blue in the presence of lots of chlorine in the flame, BUT tend to green or blue-green of there are lots of organics with -OH groups making colour forming species. Yes formation of cool flames (!) helps formation of blues and is helped by ammonium perc as some heat blows away in the hot gasses formed. Potassium Chloride is sometimes available as water softener salt or as fertiliser (Muriate of Potash) see what these suppliers can offer. Edited September 5, 2017 by Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustralianPyromaniac Posted September 5, 2017 Author Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) Thanks for the advice everyone. I will look into getting some PVC from a plastics supplier and also look into some comps containing PVC and chlorate. I know PVC has relatively little chlorine in it so it could be hard to get "lots of chlorine" in the flame Arthur but I'm sure I will find something. I did find a few blues containing CuO as the copper source so will look into those as I can get that OTC although it's quite expensive ($40 AUD/kg) much cheaper for me is copper oxichloride so I think I will try some of these comps for now. Gonna advertise my prefered own blue comp, which is very cheap and nice. Pot chlorate 67Cu oxy 13PVC 8Shellac 5Dextrin 5 Or the deeper, but less bright blue Pot chlorate 66Cu oxy 13Lactose 14PVC 7Dextrin 5Regards, AP Edited September 5, 2017 by AustralianPyromaniac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AustralianPyromaniac Posted September 5, 2017 Author Share Posted September 5, 2017 (edited) Also, what was the point of your comment on KCl sources Arthur? Edited September 6, 2017 by AustralianPyromaniac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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