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#21 Sparx88

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 07:54 AM

so rolled some 1/2" ID tubes turned out great except the first wrap came up a bit when i put it on the rocket tooling so im thinking my woodglue/water mixture is too diluted ill try again and just do a single bead of straight wood glue for the first wrap see if that helps.

 

What I do when that happens is just lift it up some using something long and thin like a bamboo skewey and smear some straight wood glue all up and down and push back in place with the skewer then back over what you rolled it with. 


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#22 Baldor

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 09:20 AM

If it's less than one turn of paper, I just remove it and forget. There will be little difference.



#23 insutama

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 11:12 AM

Im talking about the first wrap comes unrolled on the inside of tube after its dry and i put tube on toiling

#24 Mumbles

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 11:36 AM

I think he's saying tear it out.


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#25 Baldor

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 12:43 PM

Yes, it's what I'm saying, sorry for my english.

 

I did a few dozens of 12mm tubes, with various methods. With some, half the first internal layer broke loose for lack of glue when inserting the rammer (I always test the tubes with the rammer before mounting them in the spindle). I just teared the paper that the rammer get loose, and proceeded as usual. I was using very thin paper, so maybe with thicker paper this could be a problem. 



#26 lloyd

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:04 PM

"I was using very thin paper, so maybe with thicker paper this could be a problem. "

----------

Baldor, thank you!  I was tempted to make a comment about just that.  But in light of the 'abrasive' attitude I'm presumed to have, I thought it would be better to let it alone.

 

With thick (or multi-ply) papers, tearing out that turn might interfere with tooling fit.  Of course, with thin paper, one turn shouldn't matter much.

 

You said exactly what I was thinking!   Thank you!

 

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Edited by lloyd, 10 July 2017 - 01:05 PM.

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#27 insutama

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:34 PM

That makes sence ill try rolling some 30lb kraft tubes.

#28 Baldor

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:36 PM

No need to thank, Lloyd. And for my part, don't worry about "abrasive" comments. I prefer abrasive good advise than missing something important.



#29 Baldor

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 01:52 PM

That makes sence ill try rolling some 30lb kraft tubes.

Concentrate in getting a good mandrel. I said you can roll with anything with enough wax, but if you start with a good tool, all the process will be easier, and you only need to make the tool once. If you have an straight and polished mandrel, and if you wax it (solid wax, parafin, or maybe some ptfe dry lube spray) , you can apply glue from the first turn, and still remove the tube. You can even get away with glue in the mandrel, depending what kind of glue you are using.

 

I'm using simple 12mm steel tube, not calibrated, always clean, oiled when not in use, and use a little very fine sandpaper when I see some imperfection. Whit this tool I didn´t have a single delaminated tube. Next ones will need to be turned, since 15 and 19mm (seems are standars sizes for rocket tubes in Europe) are not standard stock. (But perfect for make god mandrels from 16 and 20mm stock)



#30 insutama

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Posted 10 July 2017 - 11:20 PM

how about ABS piping ? you can get lots of different sizes



#31 dagabu

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 06:42 AM

Abs and PVC piping are both ejected through a die and can change Dimensions inside and outside several thousands in just an inch or two. I would be very careful about using either one of those four-dimensional purposes.
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#32 insutama

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:25 AM

Okay so round bar or piping would be best

#33 lloyd

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 07:41 AM

Insutama,

 

PVC is 'piping'.  Dave just said it's irregular in dimensions, because it's extrusion-molded, which is generally correct.  Good-run Charlottetown PVC is pretty consistent in roundness and o.d., but I wouldn't bet my life on its being exactly the same o.d. over several inches' length.

 

METAL bar or tubing is what you need.  'Pipe' (except for some exotics) is made for plumbing, not for precision.

 

Precision-ground shafting isn't all that expensive, in short lengths.

 

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Edited by lloyd, 11 July 2017 - 07:43 AM.

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#34 Baldor

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 11:55 AM

I think you should look for something similar to this. Am I right, Lloid, Dave?

 

I searched for  steel tubing, and what I linked is similar to what I'm using. (but mine is not inox, I get it at a brico store, and don´t know exactly what it is, but is not inox for sure.)



#35 lloyd

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:13 PM

Baldor,

That would probably work fine, and is inexpensive.  I, personally, expect tubing (unless it's 'precision ground') to vary in 'circularity' over its length.  It's not that the total diameter is not right, but that it's slightly-flattened into an ovoid shape, as-received.

 

If I were doing this, I'd use something like this: http://www.ebay.com/...PkAAMXQCndRf-sS

 

It's "tool steel", not Inox, so it would have to be kept clean and oiled when not in use (although it's not VERY prone to corrosion).  But you can be assured it will be of a uniform diameter AND roundness over it's entire length.  (except for the sawn ends, which should be carefully filed to remove any cutting burrs).

 

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#36 Baldor

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:52 PM

We are talking about rolling paper for a hobby tubes here. The drying process, how you store it while drying,  and any irregularity in pressure while forming it will be more important than the mandrel. The formed tube will be a little flexible, so it will also adapt to the tooling, within reason. As long as the mandrel is reasonably uniform, Is there a justification for a 6x increase in price? And multiply this for different diameters.

 

It's an honest question. I'm in a process of serious retooling after my few, wild and non standard rockets. Seems metric standards for paper tubes are a little odd. Odd diameters, while all the tubes and calibrated stock are usually even. I want to stick to metric, since I can purchase paper tubes in Europe with reasonable shipping if needed. Odd diameters are perfect for machining the tooling, usually you can purchase the next even diameter and turn to your desired diameter without problems. But for finding a good mandrel in an odd diameter without paying a kidney for it it's proving problematic. I'm looking for 15mm and 19mm ID for now. 19mm is 3/4", but in Europe we only use imperial for water and gas pipes.



#37 lloyd

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 12:59 PM

Baldor, I agree with all you said.  I said "If _I_ were doing this...", not that what you suggested wouldn't work fine for most applications.

 

I don't intend to impose my ideas (improperly taken to be 'dictates'), but to suggest how and why I do things.  The end result depends upon a LOT of variables.  Your tubing suggestion should work fine.

 

Lloyd


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#38 insutama

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 01:06 PM

I will try and look locally shipping is way to much for a piece of 12" bar

 

http://www.ebay.ca/i...JUAAOSw9OFZNJX-



#39 Baldor

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 01:08 PM

So, now I have to visit all the metal warehouses in my zone, and plead to them to sell me a single meter of what I need... I can have a 6m bar or tube for the same that would cost me 1m in ebay.. But I only need 1m XD



#40 insutama

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Posted 11 July 2017 - 01:10 PM

lol im in the same boat Baldor





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