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Can i use finer mesh Aluminum in this formula ?


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#1 pyro5ive

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 04:28 PM

Can I use 225 mesh instead of 50-150?  What will be the difference ?

 

 

 

https://fireworkscoo...ripping-sparks/

 

 


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#2 lloyd

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 04:31 PM

'Dripping glass' requires fairly coarse aluminum, or it doesn't DRIP... instead, with fine aluminum, it burns bright-white hot, with few or short-lasting sparks, and burns MUCH faster.

 

The mesh-size of metals in formulae is important (very important!).  It has ALL to do with the effect you want.

 

Lloyd


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#3 OldMarine

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 05:01 PM

I've not seen any available aluminum that are listed as granular. Al classifications seem to be as arbitrary and confusing as rocket pound designations.
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#4 Mumbles

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 05:47 PM

This document may be helpful as well.  I think Eric made some incorrect assumptions, but it gives some more information on the effect.

 

http://pyrobin.com/f...et_analysis.pdf

 

The actual breaking glass Al I've seen is a little coarser than what is listed even.  It is probably 20 or 30 mesh on the large end and mostly is coarser than 100 mesh.  Firefox sells, or used to sell an aluminum listed as 50-150 mesh granular Al, which was entered into the passfire database, and is the closest available thing when entered.  There may be some amount of finer grade Al included as well.  The firefox stuff apparently isn't very coarse, so probably not even a good substitute.  There was some of the better stuff floating around a while ago, perhaps from Tim Seekon or Karl Maerz.

 

One of these types of products, or a blend, probably gets closer to the real deal, if even available.  This is just an illustration, I have no idea about the company itself.  

 

http://micronmetals....minum-granules/

http://micronmetals....luminum-powder/

 

Without the right stuff it's not going to drip.  It'll probably just turn into a passable glitter with a long charcoal tail if atomized aluminum more conventionally sized for glitters is used.


Edited by Mumbles, 25 April 2017 - 05:47 PM.

Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

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#5 lloyd

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:15 PM

The particular formula he quoted won't make much of a glitter -- there's just not enough sulfur or sulfur compounds in it to generate much of that, and no 'delay agent' in there to delay the spritzels' breaking until they fall behind, either.  That particular formula is basically a coarse aluminum 'flitter tail' comet, with nothing much to recommend it.

 

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#6 OldMarine

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Posted 25 April 2017 - 06:55 PM

Is this similar in effect to FSFOY?


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#7 wildcherryxoxo

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 08:46 PM

The particular formula he quoted won't make much of a glitter -- there's just not enough sulfur or sulfur compounds in it to generate much of that, and no 'delay agent' in there to delay the spritzels' breaking until they fall behind, either.  That particular formula is basically a coarse aluminum 'flitter tail' comet, with nothing much to recommend it.
 
Lloyd


You've sparked my interest- about how much sulfur is required to make a glitter glit?
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#8 lloyd

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 05:13 AM

Well.. that was a sort of "seat of the pants" appraisal on my part.  I'd have to compare a bunch of formulae to see if there's any 'cast in stone' threshold amount.  Generally, glitters have a surplus of sulfur or sulfur-bearing compounds as compared to clean-burning formulae.

 

For instance, my 'Buttered Popcorn Glitter' uses ordinary Meal-D as the flame package, with some sodium bicarbonate to yellow the flame and slow the burn rate.  But without added antimony sulfide, it just burns like dirty, slow, yellow-flamed BP. 

 

In that sulfide-free form, it leaves a good bit of ash, but not any significant spritzels.  When you add the extra Sb2S3, it leaves large globular spritzel flashes behind.

 

Lloyd


Edited by lloyd, 28 April 2017 - 05:14 AM.

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#9 wildcherryxoxo

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 06:33 AM

But you said the formula doesn't have enough sulfur, and that it won't glitter.

wouldn't it be wise to FIRST do a little comparison before making such a bold claim? A real amateur might take your advice as gospel, even when it's just "seat of the pants" rambling, and potentially untrue.

#10 lloyd

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:11 AM

First of all, I did NOT say it would not glitter;  I said it wouldn't "make much of a glitter, if it glitters at all."

 

Sigh.... did YOU try it?  I'm not the world's expert on such formulae, but I've got about five decades of making them, and seeing them burn... three of those decades commercially.  So, it's my 'best guess' that it will be a paltry glitter, if it glitters at all.

 

OF COURSE I might be wrong.  I make many such mistakes, only to find I'm 'spitting into the wind'.  On the other hand, you seem to be more entertained by looking for others' mistakes, than trying to make sure the data is right.

 

Why don't you try it, and report to us? ("Honestly" would be a good way to do that.)

 

Lloyd


Edited by lloyd, 28 April 2017 - 07:23 AM.

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#11 wildcherryxoxo

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 07:37 AM

Saying "not much of a glitter, if at all" is, practically speaking, to say that it's not going to glitter. But I'm not here to argue wether or not the formula will or won't, I'm just pointing out that your claim was made before doing any sort of research or forethought.

50 years making and testing glitters and you can't tell me if 6% sulfur is enough.. I have less than half that experience and I can tell you that 6% sulfur works in plenty of my glitters.

Edited by wildcherryxoxo, 28 April 2017 - 07:42 AM.


#12 lloyd

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 08:41 AM

No... I try to use language precisely.

 

You did just succeed, though, in describing how bad an effect you're willing to be satisfied with.  That tells me a lot about you.

 

Yeah... there certainly ARE 'glitter' formulae published that use less than 6% sulfur -- but when it's that low, it's accompanied by a significant proportion of a delay agent... which this formula did not have.  Fluorine compounds can replace the sulfur (like when cryolite is added both to color and to delay a glitter).

 

So...Now I know you're willing to 'excerpt' facts (Lie, with partial truths...) in order to make your points, and I now know  you are satisfied with sub-standard effects. 

 

Those traits seem to fit well with your user icon...

 

Lloyd


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#13 wildcherryxoxo

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 10:00 AM

Lloyd, I had written a response but I'm drawing the line at personal attacks, to me that says VOLUMES about a mans character. When someone swoops to petty jabs about someone's appearance during (what could be) a healthy discussion, I'm out.

I'm drawing my line, it's just the way I am.
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#14 lloyd

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Posted 28 April 2017 - 10:36 AM

Heh!  We can see from your icon "the way you are"!

 

Anyone who presents their public image in a way deliberately seeking to offend, regardless of the manner in which they do it, is personna non grata in just about any social group.

 

<BSEG>

Lloyd


Edited by lloyd, 28 April 2017 - 10:41 AM.

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#15 MrB

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 10:44 AM

Heh!  We can see from your icon "the way you are"!

 

It is a troll, and rarely contributes anything but spite. If this forum had a "ignore" feature, i'd have used it in one single instance. Don't pay any attention to it.

 

And for reference. I tried the comp. Granted, i don't have 225 mesh Al, but substituted 200-250 instead. No glitter. Pretty much a silver star, with slight orange trail.



#16 lloyd

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 12:02 PM

MrB,

I knew all the 'troll' stuff about 'it', and I'm loathe to abide those sorts of trouble-makers, too.

 

For your testing -- thank you.  When I am guessing (and I was this time), it's nice to have corroboration.

 

Lloyd


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#17 Maserface

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Posted 29 April 2017 - 08:03 PM

That's interesting mrb, but that's probably expected since the formula calls for coarser material.

What size comet did you pump? I've heard that some of the "breaking glass" formulas tend to work well at a given size and not very well at other sizes.

I've made and shot a bunch with different aluminum, the base formula is proprietary, but it gives you an idea. This was made with roughly 325 mesh aluminum



#18 MrB

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 02:48 AM

2" wide, about 2" long. Made a couple, cut one apart this morning, just to check that they really were dry, and shot another one. Same result. Seams to burn faster then intended.



#19 DavidF

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 12:11 PM

Guys, the sabre-rattling draws attention away from the subject at hand. The term dripping sparks got changed to glitter. Then the subject of delay agents was introduced. I don't know which formula was being dismissed as mediocre, Ned's or Eric's. Mr. B used 200-250 mesh aluminum because he didn't have 225 mesh? Where is 225 mesh even mentioned to be used? Maserface's nice glitter comet bears no similarity to the effect mentioned by the OP.

 

I'm wondering: if aluminum burns in an offboard reaction after separating from the comet, is that automatically a glitter? Does the fact that there is a delay automatically mean that a delay agent was used? I thought the spritzels 'flash' in glitter after the sulfide melt burns off. Is the slow offboard burning of aluminum the same thing as glitter flashes, in your opinions?

 

Ned's famous palm tree shell makes use of very coarse (grape nutz) titanium sponge. The burning titanium falls through the air. I've made C6 comets with that titanium. The titanium seems to ignite after a delay. In my simple way of looking at it, the 'dripping sparks' comet- the subject of the thread- works in a similar way to Ned's palm tree comets. I'm no expert, but neither of Ned's comets seem like they would be called glitter. 

 

There's all kinds of interesting stuff to talk about here- if we want to. I do!



#20 MrB

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Posted 30 April 2017 - 12:32 PM

I'm not entirely sure, but somewhere along the first few words in the topic starter, there was a mentioning of replacing the Al with finer stuff, and while i didn't have anything that specifically matched the size, i had what i suspect amounts to the same stuff, and tested it. It would be my suggestion that this is not a viable alternative.

 

Can I use 225 mesh instead of 50-150?  What will be the difference ?






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