Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Perc Quickmatch disguised as BP match


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 OldMarine

OldMarine

    Firebreather

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,201 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Lebanon Tn
  • Interests:Interests? Everything interesting!

Posted 25 February 2017 - 07:39 PM

Many folks are already aware that some of the quickmatch being sold now is perchlorate based rather than black powder based but some are not and this could prove to be at the least annoying and at the worst very dangerous. I don't usually like this fellow's videos but he is doing a service here:


Come on! Name one other hobby in which you cheer as your money and hard work go up in smoke!

#2 Richtee

Richtee

    Firebreather

  • Donator - HE
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,528 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U S of Eh! (Close to Canuckia!)
  • Interests:Electronics and security professional. A fair cook/pitmaster, and bourbon drinker :{)

Posted 26 February 2017 - 07:41 PM

What was his point anyway? Did he get there?  Gads..I’d hate to run into this guy in a pub...


I like smoke! On food or in the air equally well.

#3 starxplor

starxplor

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Detroit, MI, USA

Posted 26 February 2017 - 10:46 PM

His points were 1) he was sold something under a name that was chemically different than previously under the same name, 2) he has been told this chemical difference matters in terms of safety, and 3) he thinks he should not have been charged the same amount for a different product.

 

Imagine if you bought "willow airfloat charcoal", but it turns out to have been made with pine. It might not make a difference, but it also might be a huge difference.

 

Maybe we need someone who doesn't make people's hair stand on end when they hear him/her speak to make a video, heh.



#4 Richtee

Richtee

    Firebreather

  • Donator - HE
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,528 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U S of Eh! (Close to Canuckia!)
  • Interests:Electronics and security professional. A fair cook/pitmaster, and bourbon drinker :{)

Posted 27 February 2017 - 05:28 AM

 

Maybe we need someone who doesn't make people's hair stand on end when they hear him/her speak to make a video, heh.

 

Yeah... I guess I was stultified beyond comprehension there  :D


I like smoke! On food or in the air equally well.

#5 Mumbles

Mumbles

    Grandmaster

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,143 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Above You

Posted 27 February 2017 - 01:43 PM

His point, as far as I could tell, is that we should pay attention to what we buy.  Seems like common sense to me.  Both BP and perchlorate match are still available for what it's worth. 
 
The general issue is that perchlorate based match tends to burn more quickly and violently than black powder based match.  This can range from annoying or unexpected up to deleterious.  Certain effects such as lance pieces, girandolas, finale racks or chained shells, and the like can have the match ripped out and cause a malfunction due to the violence.  It can be tempered by removing some of the strands of match, but it's not always a cure all.  Even black powder based 5 strand match is pretty violent burning.  The fat strand stuff from Precocious is my preferred product for stuff like that.  The 5 strand is a nice source for crossmatch and priming match though.
 
Perchlorate match is also very likely to be more sensitive to impact as the hammer video shows.  It would make me uneasy if transporting shells with the risk they could get loose and possibly set one another off. 
 
Rumors of alternative oxidizers in quickmatch are nothing new.  They've been suspected since at least 1999.  http://www.jpyro.com...Kos-589-591.pdf That turned out to not be an issue in this instance however according to tests.
 
It should be noted that BP base blackmatch can be set off by impact as well, though it is considerably more difficult.  There is one documented instance of quick match being set off by a stapler resulting in a fatality about 30 years ago in Las Vegas.  It was tested and came up negative for both chlorate and perchlorate.  It does note that after many trials, they were able to get it to go off from impact alone.  The info is about half way down the page. 
 
http://www.skylighte...ymanualofca.htm
  • Ubehage likes this
Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.

#6 Richtee

Richtee

    Firebreather

  • Donator - HE
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,528 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:U S of Eh! (Close to Canuckia!)
  • Interests:Electronics and security professional. A fair cook/pitmaster, and bourbon drinker :{)

Posted 27 February 2017 - 06:49 PM

I used to make 3 strand QM that would bang. Always pass fire, but then again we’e talking maybe 100 or so shells of that particular stuff. I guess a consideration is the perc “crumbling” into the lift cup with BP/sulfur too.

 

I apologize..this guy was just like nails on a blackboard to listen to. My bad.


I like smoke! On food or in the air equally well.

#7 Mumbles

Mumbles

    Grandmaster

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,143 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Above You

Posted 27 February 2017 - 10:33 PM

That's not an uncommon sentiment.


Just so you guys quit asking, here is the link to the old forum. http://www.xsorbit2....forum/index.cgi

The sky is my canvas, and I have 2,113 pounds of powdered paint in the workshop.

#8 flashman

flashman

    Playing with fire

  • Donator
  • PipPip
  • 10 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 March 2017 - 03:04 PM

I've heard a few people say it is ok to use for crossmatch on shell `fuses. Anyone here try to use it for crossmatching? Was there any problems?

Thanks guys.



#9 lloyd

lloyd

    Firebreather

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,800 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 01 March 2017 - 03:25 PM

With only one or two strands, it works fine for cross-matching.  It's fast, but burns plenty-hot to ignite a BP fuse and ignites at a low-enough temperature to take fire from one.. 

 

But, in due caution of what it might contain, I'd suggest you "slit and tie", rather than punching and trying to thread a strand through the hole.

 

Lloyd


"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Fifty Years"


#10 Arthur

Arthur

    Firebreather

  • HE Qualified
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,624 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 04:40 PM

Some "grey/white" QM was found in the UK last autumn. There were many warnings and cautions about it among display operators but no reported incidents. Sadly it's just Chinese Quality Control! You get what they send. 



#11 Zingy

Zingy

    Pyromaniac

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 55 posts

Posted 01 March 2017 - 09:58 PM

Wow! I had no idea it was that sensitive. I have used it frequently, because it is inexpensive, and resistant to water. It does burn violently, only burning the powder off, the string.

I will be very careful where I am cutting it, and what is around me. Thank you for posting this informative cautionary information.

I have talked to some older friends that used quarry cord, for cross matching, which could also be initiated by the blow of a hammer.

I plan on doing more sensitivity testing, from this point.

Edited by Zingy, 01 March 2017 - 11:01 PM.


#12 PeteyPyro

PeteyPyro

    Pyromaniac

  • Donator
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Central Florida, USA
  • Interests:Electronics, Fishing, Bass guitarist, Muscle cars, Ham Radio, Firearms & reloading, Home brewing, Scuba and cave diving, Lapidary, Organic gardening, traveling to Chile for "our" winters, and Pyrotechnics (of course) 😎. Jack of all trades, master of none.

Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:32 AM

Scary thoughts I'm having about this "picolo" QM. If some of the coating crumbled off into a bp lift cup...and it's stored in a warm area... Glad I make my own bp QM <sigh>
Pyrotechnician. It's not an ocupation. It's a diagnosis.

#13 lloyd

lloyd

    Firebreather

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,800 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 03 July 2017 - 04:50 AM

Eh, Petey,

 

It's not (from all accounts) chlorate-based, but perchlorate-based.  There's little-to-zero danger of a reaction occurring between BP and perc-based comps.

 

We (pyros of every cloth) BP-prime perchlorate-based stars all the time, and by virtue of most of that priming's being done in star rollers, there are always bits of the comp flaked-off into the first layer or two of prime coating.

 

Lloyd


"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Fifty Years"


#14 pyroman2498

pyroman2498

    Pyrotechnician

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 381 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Interests:Organic chemistry(PhD) ,physics, and the Art and beauty of pyrotechnics

Posted 03 July 2017 - 05:57 AM

I did a show last night , we had a couple shells that didn't go off and I decided to take a closer examination of the leaders. Both 6's from the same company had 2 different QM leaders
One leader was the real black match and the other one was the perc match. This makes me think they are using what they have at hand at the time of making the shells. I've given warning to the operators I work with.
NO MAN LEFT BEHIND
 
​The Origins of "Stay Green" - http://www.fireworks.../green-man.html
 
MAPAG member (7/25/14)
Licensed NC Display Assistant (3/31/17)

#15 dagabu

dagabu

    Grandmaster

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 8,374 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Up Nort

Posted 04 July 2017 - 05:01 PM

The grey perk match seems to work just fine for lifting shells but if I am uncomfortable I pull up two of the five strands for a safety margin. I use the black perk quick match for time fuse cross matching with no incidents so far.
Dave
 
PGI Member http://www.pgi.org
IPA Member http://www.iowapyro.com
 
"The art of fire is indeed the supreme art; for fire is at once the universal slave, the universal master."

#16 OblivionFall

OblivionFall

    Pyrotechnician

  • Full Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 284 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:putting pyro aside for a lil bit

Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:05 PM

His point, as far as I could tell, is that we should pay attention to what we buy.  Seems like common sense to me.  Both BP and perchlorate match are still available for what it's worth. 
 
The general issue is that perchlorate based match tends to burn more quickly and violently than black powder based match.  This can range from annoying or unexpected up to deleterious.  Certain effects such as lance pieces, girandolas, finale racks or chained shells, and the like can have the match ripped out and cause a malfunction due to the violence.  It can be tempered by removing some of the strands of match, but it's not always a cure all.  Even black powder based 5 strand match is pretty violent burning.  The fat strand stuff from Precocious is my preferred product for stuff like that.  The 5 strand is a nice source for crossmatch and priming match though.
 
Perchlorate match is also very likely to be more sensitive to impact as the hammer video shows.  It would make me uneasy if transporting shells with the risk they could get loose and possibly set one another off. 
 
Rumors of alternative oxidizers in quickmatch are nothing new.  They've been suspected since at least 1999.  http://www.jpyro.com...Kos-589-591.pdf That turned out to not be an issue in this instance however according to tests.
 
It should be noted that BP base blackmatch can be set off by impact as well, though it is considerably more difficult.  There is one documented instance of quick match being set off by a stapler resulting in a fatality about 30 years ago in Las Vegas.  It was tested and came up negative for both chlorate and perchlorate.  It does note that after many trials, they were able to get it to go off from impact alone.  The info is about half way down the page. 
 
http://www.skylighte...ymanualofca.htm

I was lead to believe that it was incredibly difficult to ignite black powder even with something like a hammer... unlucky I guess?


"They say it don't be the way it is, but it do"


#17 lloyd

lloyd

    Firebreather

  • Donator
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,800 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 17 July 2017 - 05:15 PM

Oblivion,

Staplers shooting steel staples also often emit sparks.  It's more common than you might think.

 

Lloyd


Edited by lloyd, 18 July 2017 - 04:35 AM.

  • OblivionFall likes this

"Pyro for Fun and Profit for More Than Fifty Years"





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users