Merlin Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 I have only found 3 or 4 formulas that are designated pill box. Lancaster has one that doesn't require bright flake al ( that stuff is almost as nasty as lampblack) Does anyone know of a source for pill box formulas? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeowMix Posted August 10, 2016 Share Posted August 10, 2016 Unrelated to topic - but. What makes bright flake so "nasty"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted August 10, 2016 Author Share Posted August 10, 2016 The stuff I have is bright flake aluminum but it is clumpy and "greasy" like. If you get it on the floor a microgram will smear for a 1000 square feet. It doesn't behave at all like other grades of aluminum. Best I can describe it. Got a "deal" on it- I think from skylighter- 5 lbs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzoMittle Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Oh god. I know exactly what kind of aluminum you are talking about, I hate that stuff and would prefer to work with lampblack any day. I would say clumpy and greasy/oily feeling is the best way to describe it, it is more of a paste than granular/sandy like titanium. I was able to find the following. For the most part they are all pretty similar, using similar oxidizers and fuels in roughly 7:3 or 6:4; it shouldn't be hard to adapt the formulas or change them slightly to produce different colors, I will leave that as an 'exercise for the reader'. I would be wary of the Allen formulas. In my personal opinion pillbox stars are a construction method, not a chemical method if that makes sense, most star/comet/crossette/go-getter formulas should work, but then again what the hell do I know. Remember the burning surface / ignition surface is much smaller, prime well. Lancaster's Amber Pillbox Star, Page 9260...Potassium Chlorate26...Sodium Oxalate14...Shellac Lancaster's Blue Pillbox Star, Page 9239...Potassium Chlorate29...Ammonium Perchlorate14...Copper Carbonate, Basic14...Red Gum04...Dextrin Lancaster's Blue Pillbox Star, Page 9270...Potassium Chlorate20...Paris Green10...Shellac, 60 Mesh Lancaster's Green-Silver Pillbox Star, Page 9225...Barium Chlorate25...Barium Nitrate19...Aluminum, Bright13...Potassium Chlorate07...Red Gum05...Dextrin04...Barium Carbonate02...Charcoal, 150 Mesh Lancaster's Red Pillbox Star, Page 9264...Potassium Chlorate19...Strontium Carbonate13...Red Gum04...Dextrin Lancaster's Red-Silver Pillbox Star, Page 9270...Potassium Perchlorate12...Strontium Carbonate06...Red Gum06...Aluminum, Bright06...Aluminum, Flitter 30-80 Mesh Lancaster's Silver Pillbox Star #1, Page 9255...Barium Nitrate21...Aluminum, Dark Pyro13...Potassium Nitrate06...Dextrin04...Sulfur01...Boric Acid Lancaster's Silver Pillbox Star #2, Page 9264...Potassium Perchlorate14...Aluminum, Bright14...Aluminum, Flitter 30-80 Mesh08...Shellac, 60 Mesh Lancaster's Silver Pillbox Star #3, Page 9264...Potassium Perchlorate24...Aluminum, Bright04...Aluminum, Dark Pyro08...Shellac, 60 Mesh Electric Pink-Silver Pillbox Star, Best of AFN I68...Potassium Perchlorate14...Strontium Carbonate06...Red Gum04...Aluminum, Bright03...Aluminum, Fine Flake03...Aluminum, Coarse Flake02...Strontium Nitrate02...Dextrin Allen's Crimson Box Star50...Potassium Chlorate50...Strontium Nitrate05...CharcoalAd lib...Linseed Oil Allen's Red Box Star #126...Potassium Perchlorate16...Strontium Nitrate10...Red Gum03...Potassium Chlorate02...Dextrin01...Stearin01...Rosin Allen's Red Box Star #226...Potassium Perchlorate16...Strontium Nitrate10...Red Gum04...Charcoal, Airfloat03...Potassium Chlorate02...Stearin01...Rosin Allen's Red Box Star #3692...Potassium Perchlorate148...Strontium Carbonate099...Red Gum049...Dextrin012...Charcoal, Airfloat Allen's Red Box Star #436...Potassium Chlorate12...Strontium Carbonate04...Red Gum01...Charcoal, Airfloat01...Dextrin Allen's Red Box Star #540...Potassium Chlorate08...Strontium Carbonate08...Red Gum01...Dextrin Allen's Red Box Star #605...Potassium Perchlorate02...Strontium Carbonate02...Aluminum01...Shellac Allen's Red Box Star #764...Potassium Chlorate08...Strontium Carbonate08...Red Gum01...Dextrin Allen's Red Box Star #840...Potassium Chlorate16...Strontium Carbonate08...Red Gum01...Dextrin Allen's Red Box Star #944...Potassium Chlorate33...Strontium Nitrate11...Red Gum04...Stearin03...Dextrin Allen's Red Box Star #1020...Potassium Perchlorate16...Strontium Nitrate06...Red Gum04...Sulfur02...Dextrin01...Charcoal Allen's Red Box Star #1104...Potassium Chlorate03...Strontium Carbonate02...Shellac Allen's Red Box Star #1275...Strontium Nitrate25...Potassium Chlorate12...Linseed Oil05...Charcoal05...Shellac Allen's Red Electric Box Star #164...Strontium Nitrate17...Aluminum, Bright08...Aluminum, Coarse Flake08...Red Gum Allen's Red Electric Box Star #265...Strontium Nitrate45...Aluminum32...Potassium Nitrate13...Linseed Oil05...Charcoal04...Calomel Allen's Red with Silver Tail Box Star128...Strontium Nitrate032...Potassium Chlorate020...Red Gum007...Aluminum, Flake006...Aluminum, Atomized006...Aluminum Allen Hitt's Red Box Star52...Potassium Perchlorate09...Strontium Carbonate07...Rosin04...Charcoal04...TNT04...Dextrin Allen's Green Parachute Pot06...Potassium Chlorate02...Barium Chlorate01...Red Gum Weingart's Green Box Star, Page 13316...Potassium Chlorate12...Barium Nitrate04...Shellac01...Dextrin Weingart's Red Box Star, Page 13312...Strontium Nitrate12...Potassium Chlorate04...Shellac01...Dextrin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 Thanks Azo. That's a lot of info- think I will save it to my Dropbox. Glad I found someone familiar with the aluminum I refer to- it came up in another post as well. I can't imagine squeezing into the pillbox tube with bare fingers unless one is auditioning for the roll of "tin man" in the next wizard of oz production.I am chicken when it comes to chlorates but it sounds like most "normal" star formulas can be used. I want to try a couple shells with pillbox as I am always looking for bright stars. I don't see why you couldn't use ferrotitanium or sponge or atomized aluminum instead of bright flakeAgain thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzoMittle Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 (edited) No problem, it's what I do Funnily enough the original Wiz of Oz tin man ended up with serious health issues due to the 'aluminum paint' they used: MGM tested several types of costumes and makeup to make the Tin Man appear silvery. They tried covering Ebsen with tin, silvery paper, and silver cloth-covered cardboard. Finally they decided to go with white face paint coated with aluminum dust.Nine days into filming, Ebsen started to experience shortness of breath and cramping that sent him to the hospital. At one point his lungs failed. He remained hospitalized for two weeks, during which time the film's producer hired actor Jake Haley to play the Tin Man. Haley's makeup was reformulated into a paste that was painted on. He missed four days of filming when the makeup caused an eye infection, but he did not suffer any permanent damage and did not lose his job. That stuff always smells like movie theater buttered popcorn when I open the bag, a full respirator is a must for this stuff. Edited August 11, 2016 by AzoMittle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 Wow! You are quite good on movie trivia. I had no idea. I was just kidding but the stuff really is nasty and I suppose I will have 5 lbs for life I avoid it like lampblack. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeowMix Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 I noticed a lot of the comps have Potassium Chlorate..is there a specific reason for that? (Excuse my newby questions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlin Posted August 11, 2016 Author Share Posted August 11, 2016 (edited) I noticed a lot of the comps have Potassium Chlorate..is there a specific reason for that? (Excuse my newby questions)I to am somewhat of a newbee myself. As I understand itt chlorates produce more vibrant colors however chlorates are incompatible in some compounds unless specific precautions are taken and generally are much less safe than perchiorates. They are still used by people who have the understanding to work with with them to great effect. But I don't use chlorate - got all the tooling for whistle rockets, hydraulic press, blast shield but just haven't worked up the confidence to press them. But as for me I will avoid working with chlorates. Edited August 11, 2016 by Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzoMittle Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 (edited) I noticed a lot of the comps have Potassium Chlorate..is there a specific reason for that? (Excuse my newby questions) No, no, no, that is a GREAT question. I don't have a 'for sure' answer but I can take an educated guess at it; hopefully someone with more experience and knowledge can chime in. Note that I could be completely and utterly wrong about everything that follows, it is just my best guess, always double check the info you get, especially from random people online. I would say it has more to do with when these formulas were made, most formulas from the Weingart/Kentish/Degn era used chlorates instead of perchlorates (IIRC perch wasn't readily available at this time). You'll also notice a lack of things like parlon or magnalium, instead chlorates were used as the chlorine donors and magnesium for 'vibrant' stars and bright aluminum for 'electric' stars. I'm not sure why the chlorates and magnesium fell out of favor exactly, most likely a combination of safety and availability/cost. I've also noticed that shellac is more popular in older formulas while red gum is more common in newer ones, again, I don't know if that is because of availability and cost or if it is because red gum works better in those perch+MgAl systems. My intuitive understanding of this is that if you can combine your chlorine donor and oxidizer into one chemical (KClO3 vs KClO4+Parlon) you can increase the amount of color bearing chemical (10% carbonate w/ perch vs 30% carbonate w/ chlorate), if you can combine the cholorine donor, the oxidizer, and the color donor into one then even better (Ba(ClO3)2). For instance the best green I have ever made was pure Barium Chlorate with 10% Shellac; IIRC (don't quote me on this) the problem with is it priming, the chlorate can't come in contact with BP (such as on coated rice hull burst). Check out this video of a barium chlorate pillbox star (not mine), don't look directly at the white spot where the star is but the reflection off the garage door gives a better indication of how it would like in the sky: https://youtu.be/RU3rcHT2ZxE Here is another good video (from one of our own members, Rogerymaw) of an actual in-the-sky test: https://youtu.be/225s9hximQg Merlin is right, chlorates come with certain incompatibilities and hazards. They produce beautiful stars and are still used in 'exhibition' formulas. Likewise magnesium produces a better color than magnalium however the aluminum in magnalium helps to 'tame' it to a certain degree. I don't remember all the chlorate safety info offhand because I too avoid them; if you decide to go the chlorate route make double, triple sure that you look into what can and can't be used with them. Edited August 11, 2016 by AzoMittle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzoMittle Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 (edited) Oh, and as far as working with that particular bright aluminum goes, the best method I have found so far is to throw it into a ziploc bag with the other metals or charcoal (the coarser the better on both counts, I like the 30-60 mesh ferrotitanium and the 36 or 80 mesh charcoal but use whatever floats your boat), seal it up, and knead it in until it sort of coats the other components. Trying to knead it into any kind of comp that is a meal powder consistency is a PITA. Do NOT mix into your oxidizers directly, making a bag full of flash is never a good idea. Gloves and a respirator are a must regardless, the stuff is a mess if it spills or gets airborne (to put it mildly). Edited August 11, 2016 by AzoMittle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogeryermaw Posted August 11, 2016 Share Posted August 11, 2016 Potassium chlorate is a fair chlorine donor. It gives it up easier than perchlorates. One formula up there really bothered me and should be avoided like plague. The first Lancaster blue says to use ammonium perchlorate and potassium chlorate. Ammonium perchlorate should never be used in a formula with any chlorate...or even in the same room chlorate comps are processed. The unpredictable and quite violent ammonium chlorate may evolve from such mixtures in the right conditions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiley Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 If you wanna get rid of that bright flake, just make up some heavy reports with Thunder #3 using it. I haven't been able to tell the difference between that comp and flash made with dense, single-digit micron aluminum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arw Posted August 17, 2016 Share Posted August 17, 2016 attentionattentionattention:please do not use chlorate composition.i make red pillboxLancaster's Red Pillbox Star, Page 9264...Potassium Chlorate19...Strontium Carbonate13...Red Gum04...Dextrinand it ignited it self last night and my lab is burned :-(i will create a new topic later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMarine Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 attentionattentionattention:please do not use chlorate composition.i make red pillboxLancaster's Red Pillbox Star, Page 9264...Potassium Chlorate19...Strontium Carbonate13...Red Gum04...Dextrinand it ignited it self last night and my lab is burned :-(i will create a new topic later. Give us an update please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arw Posted September 2, 2016 Share Posted September 2, 2016 Give us an update please.http://www.amateurpyro.com/forums/topic/11989-chlorate-composition/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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