NC laqcuer

[Redrocketman]

I need to acquire nitrocellulose laqcuer for heavy duty rocket igniters. I believe ping pong balls are not really NC, but do work. I went and bought a pack & proceeded to dissolve in pure acetone. Obviously not all ping pong balls are so!! I ended up with a massive gooey blob on the bottom of the container, they didn't dissolve at all. Can someone shed some light on this issue!?

I could buy a tin of guitar NC laqcuer, is this suitable or I should say similar to pyrotechnic NC?

[OldMarine]

You can buy nitrocelluolose from Firefox.com if you jump through the hoops.

I prefer to use double base smokeless powder and acetone myself. This has the needed NC with the added benefit of nitroglycerin.

Works great.

[Redrocketman]

Cheers. I tried Australian smokeless ADR brand & it really didn't dissolve either. The particles swelled but would not break up even after a solid mixing. I'll shoot down to see my dealer tomorrow and have a hunt for some double base.

[WSM]

Cheers. I tried Australian smokeless ADR brand & it really didn't dissolve either. The particles swelled but would not break up even after a solid mixing. I'll shoot down to see my dealer tomorrow and have a hunt for some double base.

 

Most smokeless powders I've used for NC lacquer took nearly a month of daily shaking the closed bottle before it became a uniform consistency (like syrup). The smokeless powder first jells, and then very slowly dissolves in acetone.

 

The procedure calls for patience.

 

WSM

[Redrocketman]

Thanks mate. It's been at least 2 weeks, but I have checked & stored it for a while as I believed it was inferior. I'll be patient and persist!

[Redrocketman]

Damn phone, I ment checked & stirred!!

[WSM]

Damn phone, I ment checked & stirred!!

 

I get that.

 

When replying on a "smart" phone, it's a good idea to read through what you wrote before sending (in case the phone has a better idea of what you mean to say ) !!!

 

WSM

[WSM]

I recall that my dissolved smokeless powder lacquer had a somewhat olive drab color, due to whatever was in the starting materials. I added a very small amount of methylene blue powder (dye) to the lacquer and it became a very nice "Visco" green color (dark forest green with a tiny hint of blue). It dried to a flat (non-glossy) finish, but otherwise made a nice lacquer.

 

I suppose some minor additive might yield a nice gloss coat, useful for e-match coating or other purposes. An addition of some sort (for flexibility) would be recommended if the lacquer is intended for coating safety fuse.

 

If the lacquer is intended as a pyrotechnic binder, be aware that alcohol and acetone are prone to absorb water from the atmosphere, and drying the solvent chemically is advised before use to dissolve NC (especially if using the lacquer for compositions including moisture sensitive materials like magnesium powder). A better solvent for making lacquer used with moisture sensitive materials might be amyl acetate (AKA banana oil), which doesn't attract moisture. It dries slower than acetone but tends to make a nice stabile lacquer that keeps well over time (if stored in a tightly sealed container).

 

WSM

[Sparx88]

It takes awile for it to disolve. Maybe a few hours to a day at the extreme. Stir it often.

[patsroom]

I need to acquire nitrocellulose laqcuer for heavy duty rocket igniters. I believe ping pong balls are not really NC, but do work. I went and bought a pack & proceeded to dissolve in pure acetone. Obviously not all ping pong balls are so!! I ended up with a massive gooey blob on the bottom of the container, they didn't dissolve at all. Can someone shed some light on this issue!?

I could buy a tin of guitar NC laqcuer, is this suitable or I should say similar to pyrotechnic NC?

I have read somewhere that guitar NC lacquer is a good source to use for pyro. It should be about the same as pyro NC if not the same. If I am wrong I am sure someone will speak up and say so. By the way how much for the tin and how many mil liters is it..............Pat

[carbonhalo]

I bought my ping pong balls from Toyworld, and a burn test showed they left virtually no ash. they dissolve well overnight in acetone. I bought a bottle of Thales double base smokeless ( I'm not stomping over to the pyro shed in the dark to see what number, but I remember it was my second choice for .308 ammo) . It also dissolved overnight in acetone, although I tend to worry about the nitroglycerin floating to the top.

[GalFisk]

I bought my ping pong balls from Toyworld, and a burn test showed they left virtually no ash. they dissolve well overnight in acetone. I bought a bottle of Thales double base smokeless ( I'm not stomping over to the pyro shed in the dark to see what number, but I remember it was my second choice for .308 ammo) . It also dissolved overnight in acetone, although I tend to worry about the nitroglycerin floating to the top.

This is how you see if you have the right balls. Plastic ones would melt and leave a mess. Non-cheapo ones are made from real NC, but it's less nitrated than pyro NC, and plasticized with camphor. So another way to test them is to break one open and see if the inside smells of camphor.

[Pyrophury]

For what it's worth I use the kind of NC lacquer you get in a tin used for guitars etc, it works for all the pyro applications I've tried, including crackling microstars. I don't see why it wouldn't work for e-matches as I've even heard of nail polish being used for this particular application with success.

[WSM]

For what it's worth I use the kind of NC lacquer you get in a tin used for guitars etc, it works for all the pyro applications I've tried, including crackling microstars. I don't see why it wouldn't work for e-matches as I've even heard of nail polish being used for this particular application with success.

 

You are correct.

 

WSM

Edited August 6, 2016 by WSM

[Redrocketman]

Thanks for the replies. Obviously the balls I got were cheap, non NC type. As for the smokeless powder, the types I had on hand were all single base, I was just being impatient & didn't stir it enough. Quite an amount of acetone has evaporated, leaving the end result a tad dry / clumpy. Not overly. I'll add another 100ml of fresh acetone, seal, and blend it properly. I am going to buy a small tin of guitar laqcuer & experiment with that also, if I can find it at a reasonable price. tho I have now made a pyrogen straw type igniter which I've found to be brilliant. Literally explodes in flame & fire igniting instantly, greatly improving overall burn & performance in a variety of class motors throwing a vast amount of flame right through core pressurising the chamber very quickly.

[kramrocket]

I need to acquire nitrocellulose laqcuer for heavy duty rocket igniters. I believe ping pong balls are not really NC, but do work. I went and bought a pack & proceeded to dissolve in pure acetone. Obviously not all ping pong balls are so!! I ended up with a massive gooey blob on the bottom of the container, they didn't dissolve at all. Can someone shed some light on this issue!?

I could buy a tin of guitar NC laqcuer, is this suitable or I should say similar to pyrotechnic NC?

 

Try Ethyl Acetate instead of Acetone with your single base powder, it dissolves much more thoroughly.

[Redrocketman]

Thanks Kram. This stuff I just made is shit. Still haven't dissolved totally after 2 months!!!!il get some Ethil Acetate & a now bottle of double base & try that. After that if I'm not happy I'm just buying a tin of guitar NC. Don't need it till Twig's visco machine appears!!

[stix]

If all you are wanting to make is ignitors with a pyrogen mix, then ping pong (table tennis balls) should suffice and are inexpensive.

 

Sometime back there was a movement to make ping pong balls out of plastic of some sort and the table tennis community revolted - apparently they did not have the same feel, and they reverted back to using NC. Good for us

 

As already pointed out when you cut them you can smell the camphor. Camphor has a weirdly familiar smell - to me anyway. An easy test to do is cut a small piece and light it. It should burn quickly with a nice yellow flame and leave little residue.

 

Cut the ball into thin strips then dissolve in Acetone in a sealed container. Mix every few hours or so and you will have very usable NC lacquer within 24hrs.

 

I suggest this test be done at home and not in-store. ie. cutting ping pong balls, then sniffing may cause undue attention.

 

[Redrocketman]

Yes , buying them 1st would be much less likely to cause any undue attention!!!!

[NeighborJ]

I'm sorry Red but I just can't understand why this has been such an issue? The smokeless powder should have dissolved in a day or two in most conditions. I know it is cold where you live so I'm wondering if the temp you are doing this in is too low.

I dissolve it inside a sealed mason jar with single or double base using acetone. I shake it up a couple times a day and stir up the sludge from the bottom with a stick. It helps if I can leave it in a hot car, in the sun or on top of some warm electronics like a computer or cable box.

Most smokeless powder has a coating of graphite which will not dissolve and settles at the bottom of the jar, I try not to agitate it from the bottom and will decant the nc from the top into another container.

Edited August 20, 2016 by NeighborJ

[kramrocket]

But once again, try Ethyl Acetate... it's an Ester, not a Ketone. The nitration of cellulose is said to be 'esterfication' so perhaps that's why I have found it to dissolve smokeless powder quicker and very uniformly.

Ping pong balls having the additional plasticizer such as camphor, may well behave differently....

[Mumbles]

Not all ping pong balls are NC either. You'll want to search out ones that are made of celluoid or smell of camphor. The other material sometimes used is cellulose acetate. I even came across some made from what I suspected was some sort of polyethylene or PETE. Very soft and flexible, though used for some other purposes.

[stix]

Yes , buying them 1st would be much less likely to cause any undue attention!!!!

 

Funny thing is that a similar situation almost happened.

 

I found out that paulownia wood (good for bp charcoal) is used as frame surrounds on hobby painting canvas sets (cheap for testing). Went down to the hardware store where they sold them and bought a set (ten bucks). Worked very well.

 

After I'd used it all, I went back there and bought another set. When I got home and started to disassemble it I realised it was pinewood (radiata) not paulownia - The resinous pine is easy to smell. I couldn't take it back. Obviously they are made with both woods, but visually It's too hard to tell the difference.

 

So I went I back there again, but this time carefully picked through the frames, pulling a bit of plastic off the pack and discreetly, carefully sniffing each frame until I had the right one. Easy enough to tell - paulownia hardly has a smell.

 

I didn't get caught, but just imagine what someone would have thought seeing me do this . I guess I could have pretended to be a temperamental artist and said (in an french/german/russian accent) "Ziss is bullshice! I vill not paint on this substandard frame!! - diss vood duss not smell right!!".

[rogeryermaw]

Usually the n.c. lacquer i make from hodgdon's rifle powder (forget which number but the pellets are rod shaped, greenish gold and dissolve almost clear in small quantities) only takes about 15-20 minutes to fully dissolve to a corn syrup consistency with active shaking/mixing in a mason jar (vent every few minutes during shaking and store in the shop freezer)

[Redrocketman]

Nice accent stix!!! Russian will do.

 

Don't stress guys, I've put my lack of success down to : lack of attention and stirring!, extremely cold weather last few months, wrong type ping balls ( they were plastic)and a flake type smokeless powder that had a huge amount of graphite coating. After rubbing some through your fingers the fingertips were dark grey and extremely glassy/mirrored. I have to reload some 300wsm for the first time & have not yet brought powder, so I'll wait till I order brass & powder, then try again. Thanks heaps for all the advice