SmokinJoe Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 I'm trying to make an ignition mixture which is fluid...similar to matchheads. Literature shows these mixtures as being fluid, i.e. matches formed by dipping in the solution, yet the mixture formulas have the binder as being a maximum of 16% binder (e.g. animal glue). When I make these mixtures they are so dry, that it becomes at best case a very dry paste, which doesn't meet my manufacturing requirement (needs to be liquid or at least flowable). What am I missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted May 25, 2016 Share Posted May 25, 2016 Ummm... first of all, they are NOT "solutions". At best, they are 'suspensions', and that makes a difference. You say "16% binder". Did you say that was the dry weight of the binder, or the quantity AFTER water has been added. I suspect 16% dry weight is FAR excessive -- I do not know this for a fact, but would guess the binder's dry % should be something under 10% (maybe less than that). Since the binder's solvent is water, did you ever consider just adding more water until the suspension is motile? Hmmm? Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuselighter Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Thank you Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Lloyd, the 16% binder is used in some matchhead compositions, to make them really thought. A striker has to handle a lot of force to work propper. Also they serve as a dual purpose as fuel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 I can live with that explanation! As I said, "I suspect...", but wouldn't vouch for it, since I don't make SAW matches for a living. I do know that stars made with 6.25% dextrin end up darned hard AND durable. You could scratch them all day on rough surfaces, and only wear them down, but not fracture or pulverize them. Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokinJoe Posted May 26, 2016 Author Share Posted May 26, 2016 Since the recipes indicated adding in the animal glue first (for safety I presume, thus avoiding dry mixing) thus the 16% by weight is the liquid (before dried). When I make in this ratio, the mix, is very dry, not flowable, even difficult to get all the dry components stuck together. In other reading they add significant water, and some indicate heating or air drying. I believe the answer is that they dilute with water, assume it is evaporated or dried out (note the water is not listed in the component summary/% breakdown). In prior testing, I created ignition mixtures with more dilute dextrin glue, and found them not to work. I see some reference to drying at 115F for several hours. I think a much more dilute glue solution is the answer, will result in a flowable mixture, that will then compact under drying, to a mixture where the active particles are closer (less glue between active particles). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 First things first, I'm going to split this off. It has absolutely nothing to do with colored smoke compositions really. This may be a dumb question, but are you sure it's 16 percent and not 16 parts? Also, you should be sure that the 16% is not just the glue solids. For matches that is not an uncommon amount, which ranges up to 25-30%. Most of the match formulas I'm familiar with are quite old. They'll usually just list the amount of water as "q.s." or leave it off the component list entirely as it should be common knowledge it's used to make the match heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 With most formulae gathered from old established trades people you need the list of ingredients, the solvents, and the method used before you can make them work. Very often the real knowledge of how the formula works was never written down. Particle size makes a lot of difference to how things suspend in liquids, sometimes they just separate out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmokinJoe Posted May 26, 2016 Author Share Posted May 26, 2016 All, thanks for the input...while the match making is a related part of my project involving colored smoke, it admittedly isn't directly on topic...my apologies. I have colored smoke experiments going on, will share some info and comments on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Not a problem, I just wanted to split them so that they could each have their own dedicated topics. It keeps things cleaner and easier to find down the road. What sort of match formula are you looking to use? I think I see where you're going with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Propably the old discussion, use red phosphorus or not in the comp? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 I've got a bunch of it, if anyone wants to wade through all the DEA paperwork AND come pick it up in person... they can HAVE six pounds, just to get it out of my shop! Five of it is wet and acidic, and will require washing. The sixth pound is 'clean and dry'. But... gotta have an ATF license. No "ifs" about that one! LLoyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 My brother lives right down the road from D D Bean in new Hampshire... I always wanted to tour that facility. It's burned down a few times over the years I'm told... I think it may even be the last match factory in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 I've got a bunch of it, if anyone wants to wade through all the DEA paperwork AND come pick it up in person... they can HAVE six pounds, just to get it out of my shop! Five of it is wet and acidic, and will require washing. The sixth pound is 'clean and dry'. But... gotta have an ATF license. No "ifs" about that one! LLoydPounds?^^ a hundred gramms will make you a life time supply of striker heads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 'pends on how often you strike! <G> Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 'pends on how often you strike! <G> LloydWell, if you think about that you need .3g of striker comp per item and 60 g P / kg. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Well... nonetheless, my offer is legitimate, if odd! If a licensed manufacturer (amateur or pro) wants it enough to come pick it up and do the paperwork, then it's free for the taking. Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaMtnBkr Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 I want it Lloyd! But I don't have a license. I can trade you some powdered red clay that might look similar? Just kidding of course. Maybe I should get a license one day. That's the biggest reason I don't ever make things at guild festivals. I like to keep, make, and shoot everything on the property so I don't have to get involved with all the convoluted laws dealing with transporting. It takes away a lot of the fun when you are worrying about whether you are breaking a gray area law or if you might run across a cop that's of the mindset to arrest and let the courts determine legalities. Oh well. I'm sure someone will enjoy it one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Well... Florida's not that hard a place for those issues. If you have a federal license and you are NOT in business, then except for some quantity limitations, FLDOT and USDOT aren't going to mess with you. You should think about it again (no, not for the RP, but for the 'freedom' it will give you!) LLoyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixRising Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 (edited) I would personally want nothing to do with that stuff. I'm willing to bet there are more pyro accidents involving Red P throughout history than any other chemical. (Well maybe not exactly, but I bet it's up there) I'm perfectly fine with buying my matches from the store. Edited May 27, 2016 by PhoenixRising Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Oh, but Phoenix, you just don't understand the EXCITEMENT of the stuff! It's sensitive, it's VIOLENTLY POISON, it causes permanent, irreversible bone loss, loss of teeth, broken jaws, glowing skin, impotency, drunkenness, and immorality!And it's FUN! With even 'passive' oxidizers: It explodes at the least provocation, even when you do not intend for it to do so! It ignites at the MEREST PROVOCATION -- sometimes even when you do NOT provoke it! (just SITTING THERE overnight!) It's FUN, Phoenix! Fun is what this hobby is all about (even if you do it for a living, like I do! <G>) Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhoenixRising Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Hahahaaa, I knew there was reason I just can't stay away from this website! I was just thinking of the cost savings of not needing a glow in the dark skeleton costume for Halloween each year.... Hmmmm.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Oh, but Phoenix, you just don't understand the EXCITEMENT of the stuff! It's sensitive, it's VIOLENTLY POISON, it causes permanent, irreversible bone loss, loss of teeth, broken jaws, glowing skin, impotency, drunkenness, and immorality! And it's FUN! With even 'passive' oxidizers: It explodes at the least provocation, even when you do not intend for it to do so! It ignites at the MEREST PROVOCATION -- sometimes even when you do NOT provoke it! (just SITTING THERE overnight!) It's FUN, Phoenix! Fun is what this hobby is all about (even if you do it for a living, like I do! ) Lloyd Those are all properties of white phosphorous, at least until you get to the super powers. Red phosphorus is quite a bit safer, more stable, and easier to work with. It's the acidic, corrosive smoke from the burning compositions that is actually the most dangerous. That's not to say that certain composition with red phosphorous are not very sensitive and dangerous, but the material itself is not difficult or dangerous to handle. There have even been animal studies on exposure to red phosphorous pyrotechnic compositions. It's all acidic errosion of the respiratory system, nothing to do with phosphorous toxicity. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0304389489800019http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S138357181000207X Regardless, phossy jaw would be a nasty way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Meth heads ruin everything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lloyd Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 I have six pounds! Anyone qualified can have it! <G> Lloyd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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