rocket fuel

[MadMat]

Comparing BP and flash as simply an oxidizer and a fuel is like comparing a chihuahua to a rottweiler and not understanding the difference. Yes, they are both dogs, but..... From a pure and simple chemical stand point there is two completely different oxidizers involved; more importantly, there is a world of difference in the fuels, namely one is a finely divided metal. If you talk to anyone that makes BP, they know how important the type of fuel is to the performance of the final product. Simply the difference in the type of wood used to make the charcoal makes a world of difference in the burn speed of the final BP.

 

** Before anyone busts me on the different oxidizers thing, yes, I know the are nitrate based flash powders, but the standard flash powder is made with perchlorate; and I did say "more importantly...."

Edited May 4, 2016 by MadMat

[abdelrahmanamr]

Well flash has perchlorate and magnesium or aluminum, kinda like the composite fuel, I wanted to know what's different chemically that makes them behave differently

[MadMat]

OK since this is the chemistry forum I will go into a little more detail. An oxidizer supplies oxygen, but more technically it strips electrons from the fuel (oxidation). Granted there are differences in the reactivity of different oxidizers (speed and ease in which they release oxygen, or strip those electrons away), but switching from a fuel such as carbon (charcoal) to a metal makes a huge difference in the speed of the reaction. Metals such as aluminum and magnesium love to lose electrons. They oxidize extremely easy. When dark aluminum is made, a small amount of charcoal is added to keep the aluminum from oxidizing on contact with the air, hence the name "dark". Other forms of powdered aluminum are coated with such things as stearins to stop oxidation. So, you combine aluminum's tendency to oxidize with the fact it is powdered down to a couple microns in particle size, and you have a fuel which will lose its electrons very easily and extremely fast.

 

BTW Lloyd, are you really quitting smoking or was that just said tongue-in-cheek ? If you truly are, good luck!

Edited May 4, 2016 by MadMat

[lloyd]

Mat, have done. Two weeks tapering down, four days now at zero. No 'plans', no patches, and so-far, no over-eating -- and smoking a pack or more a day since age 12-13. (I'm 67 now).

 

 

LLoyd

[MadMat]

I quit for eight years. Did it cold turkey. Unfortunately, some years back, went through two years of really stressful shit and started back up again.

[lloyd]

ALSO, one's going to have to understand heats of formation of the various combustion products to explain some of what flash powders do.

 

Abdelrahmanamr Part of why I clamped my jaw shut so hard when you first posted is that you seem almost to INSIST that you know all about chemistry, and seem to 'refute' the claim that BP and flash powder can be any different!

 

If you would do even the SMALLEST bit of research about the fuels and the oxidizers in the two mixtures, you'd immediately (well, maybe not YOU, but an intuitive person would) see that there are remarkable differences in the fuels, the oxidizers, the heats of formation, the relative valences.... All sorts of stuff that _anyone_ with even a smattering of chemistry knowledge would know.

 

So... We're a good sort of crew here. We'll help all we can. But I think you need to tone down the "I'm an expert, and I don't agree..." crap and come in as a student. None of us here are experts at everything, and we're ALL students in this art.

 

LLoyd

[Peret]

You can get a nitrate test kit at any shop that sells aquarium equipment

 

http://www.amazon.com/API-LR1800-Nitrate-Test-Kit/dp/B002DVVICS

[abdelrahmanamr]

Are guys really talking about quitting smoking or is some kind of secret language???

[OldMarine]

Lloyd is giving up smoking after 50+ years.

[lloyd]

Abdel,

I quit smoking Saturday night.

 

It's not a "secret languague". It's a DIFFICULT LANGUAGE!

 

Lloyd

[abdelrahmanamr]

That's awesome, keep it up and congrats

Wish I could quit too

[MadMat]

Quitting is very difficult. I remember almost biting peoples heads off if they looked at me the wrong way for the first week when I quit.

[Sparx88]

I smoked 22 years or so and quit twice. The second one being the last one. 5 years ago now. For me it was a matter of either continue to help myself die sooner or do a favor for everyone who loves me and knock it off. It's a mind set, get angry with it and just turn it off like a switch. I took Chantix the first week and was done.

[lloyd]

"I smoked 22 years or so and quit twice.",

 

--------------------

Me, too, except it's been 55 years. So, we "see". At least, my woman is amenable.

 

Lloyd

[MrB]

You never quit smoking. Well. Not until your dead. You just haven't had your next smoke yet...

 

Anyway, good on ya guys. I've been free from tobacco for 23 years. Still hooked on a pair of "other" smokes, purely for recreational uses, of course.

Who here doesn't love smoke?

B!

[Seymour]

I'm more of a nitrocellulose kinda guy... all smokeless for me.

Just joking. I love Nitrocellulose best with colourants added which means it's not smokeless any more. Also I have an ongoing addiction with the Black stuff, which we all know is not at all smokeless. I'm not planning to quit this habit any time soon.

 

 

Abdelrahmanamr, one very important difference between Black Powder and almost all other compositions (including Flash powder) is the way which you can handle them during manufacture. Black powder can be compacted in to tubes by pounding with a hammer, but this is considered quite unsafe with almost all other mixes, which need to be pressed to consolidate them as the risk of ignition from impact are usually much higher. If you are going to be making Rockets with anything that is not DEFINITELY Black powder, I strongly suggest using a press for safety reasons.

 

You can buy presses and some kinds, such as small Arbor presses may be quite affordable. Otherwise you can make a frame and use a bottle jack, like the ones used to lift cars to change the wheel.

 

Best of luck

[lloyd]

Seymore,

Just this once, I'm going to brag. (OK... maybe I'll do it more than once over time, but I try not to do it often!)

 

I probably have more (and more successful) experience coloring NC flames professionally than anybody on the planet except Russ Nickel. And in some narrow venues, I believe my colors are better than his!

 

If you REALLY want to get deeply into NC flame colors, there are a number of disciplines besides just "color donors" you'll have to explore!

(and unfortunately, I can only give 'general guidance', because I'm under contract concerning that very art)

 

LLoyd

[MrB]

(and unfortunately, I can only give 'general guidance', because I'm under contract concerning that very art)

 

Easy escape hatchet. Bragging, with a strategy not to have to back it up. In that case, i'm the man in the moon. I'm only jesting, of course, and only since you said you'd only brag this once. It's to good a chance not to take it ;- )

 

The NC field is interesting, but "mostly" only for indoors use, since it's a fair bit more expensive. Yes, it would be nice to shoot "smokeless" fireworks all the time, since the smoke does obstruct some effects, and detracts from the over all experience, but consumer products, and most hobbyists, will stay with more conventional compositions, for cost reasons.

Sad really, since some of the NC compositions are really safe to use as well.

B!

[Seymour]

Please elaborate further... I'm not quite sure what you mean by disciplines. Of course I'm not asking for anything like formulas or perhaps even compounds.

 

By colour donors I mean both the metal donor and when relevant, a chlorine donor. I can think of occasions when an oxidiser might be desired because the nitro is fuel rich, but in those cases, I think it's usually better to stop using that nitro and to use less fuel rich stuff, you know, stuff that does not have that yellow flame from carbon incandescence.

 

Sometimes an oxidiser may be used because it so happens to be an excellent source of a colourant. Some Barium compounds are currently in my mind. In that case it may be desired to add some fuel of some sort to balance things (perhaps even that fuel rich nitro that I just rejected). As a fictional example, a turquoise is desired and excessive oxygen is not wanted to limit the reddish flame edges created by copper in over oxidised flames. I my opinion, nitro can burn hotter than is ideal for copper based blue, and so cooling it may be beneficial. Adding Ammonium perchlorate and Parlon has worked for me, providing abundances of chlorine for the copper, but potentially also poisoning any indoor audiences.

 

Throw in burn rate modifiers, and in the limited context of nitro based coloured flames, what am I missing, that you are allowed to tell me without compromising commercial intellectual property?

Edited May 15, 2016 by Seymour

[lloyd]

Easy escape hatchet. Bragging, with a strategy not to have to back it up.

 

( I corrected this after being informed I jumped up the wrong ass. Seymore... my apologies)

 

-------------------

F' you, MrB. I have plenty of clients including major theme park companies who'll back up that statement. And you have NO skills or experience to counter the comment, even if it were false.

 

As I said elsewhere... I'm done 'criticizing' (helping) with your work, because you're a complete asshole who doesn't know who's-who in the industry, and presumes YOUR one year of "experience" equates to 40+ years of commercial for-sale production.

 

Bite me, and die, jerk. Last words, ever.

 

Lloyd

Edited May 15, 2016 by lloyd

[wildcherryxoxo]

Easy escape hatchet. Bragging, with a strategy not to have to back it up.

-------------------

F' you, Seymour. I have plenty of clients including major theme park companies who'll back up that statement. And you have NO skills or experience to counter the comment, even if it were false.

 

As I said elsewhere... I'm done 'criticizing' (helping) with your work, because you're a complete asshole who doesn't know who's-who in the industry, and presumes YOUR one year of "experience" equates to 40+ years of commercial for-sale production.

 

Bite me, and die, jerk. Last words, ever.

 

Lloyd

Did I miss something? I think you are talking to mrb, not Seymour ? (And I think he was just joking)

 

 

 

Fuck

[MrB]

Easy escape hatchet. Bragging, with a strategy not to have to back it up.

-------------------

F' you, Seymour. I have plenty of clients including major theme park companies who'll back up that statement. And you have NO skills or experience to counter the comment, even if it were false.

 

Hey now. That was pretty uncalled for. Mostly since he didn't write that, i did, and as i said, i am jesting. Your input is always valuable, and generally your ok with poking fun, if there is a proper opportunity for it. Which the "for once, i am going to brag" statement was, at least in my opinion.

 

Now, i think you owe Seymour an apology. ;- )

 

And i'll take my arse-ripping in a PM, if your intent on ripping me a new one. I like my.... privacy, for these intimate things. Shoot me a line if you feel like it.

B!

Edited May 15, 2016 by MrB

[lloyd]

Cherry, thanks for catching that. Seymore, my apologies for directing that at you.

 

No... MrB wasn't joking. Read his posts, in general. IF that's joking, then all the opinions I stated remain the same

 

Lloyd

[lloyd]

I corrected it. Mr.B was the one being a jerk.

 

Aw... Sorry, MrB... I was "only jesting".

 

Or, did you get that far in the message before you felt attacked?

 

No... No private emails: public crap gets public responses.

 

A LOT of real A-holes claim "only jesting" after letting loose with the most vile insults. If you don't wish to offend, don't say DELIBERATELY offensive things. If you say them, be ready to have them taken as-expressed, without your 'joking' conditions.

 

LLoyd

[MrB]

Or, did you get that far in the message before you felt attacked?

 

Yes... That is totally why i put it in my original post. I expected you to have woken up, feeling like a total asshat, and needing someone to blame it on.

 

 

 

I'm only jesting, of course, and only since you said you'd only brag this once. It's to good a chance not to take it ;- )

 

 

Either that, or i teleported back in time, and added it with my edit. Your call, of course.

 

 

No... No private emails: public crap gets public responses.

 

 

Sure, fine by me. I was rather suggesting that you'd take it private since i expect pretty much everyone thinks your overreacting at this point. It is quite ok, and you can have it either way. Since i was the one that caused the misunderstanding, i was trying to offer a clean exit, since you quite clearly misunderstood, or just didn't read the post before exploding.

 

 

A LOT of real A-holes claim "only jesting" after letting loose with the most vile insults. If you don't wish to offend, don't say DELIBERATELY offensive things. If you say them, be ready to have them taken as-expressed, without your 'joking' conditions.

 

I'll remember that the next time your trying to be funny. You know, this isn't the first joke that got misunderstood, but to clarify.. I stated that it was a joke, something you deliberately did not quote when you went of and exploded, but is clearly in the post you quoted. It's time you cool down, and realize that that is all it was. A joke. Or not cool down, and keep steaming alone. I'm not going to give it another thought at this point. I know it was a joke, and no point stewing on it on my part.

 

B!