Norwest Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hi, I am a total newbie to making fireworks but have been doing some reading up. As making black powder is a pre-requisite for most fireworks I am trying to figure out where to start. I have a rubber lined tumbler that I could use ass a ball mill but am a bit concerned about safety, especially after reading about some accidents on the safety forum. I don't have any very isolated areas on my property accept for my garage which is full of tools and bikes so setting up a containment area would be challenging. I do see that skylighter has red gum BP kits that rely on screening rather than a ball mill. Can you all tell me the limitations of using red gum BP? Having suffered 2nd and 3rd degree burns on 1/3 of my body as a child (not fireworks or pyro related) I would rather not go through that again. Best regards, Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OblivionFall Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 You can't run a ball mill anywhere indoors. It's gotta be outside in the ground, preferably in tires or some kind of strong bunker. I think you will get much better results ball milling your black powder. Also I bet you that the skylighter kit will end up costing you 5x more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 16, 2015 Share Posted July 16, 2015 Hi Thomas, I've never tried out the skylighter method, but there are ways to make decent black powder without needing to mill everything together. If you choose not to, or are unable to mill everything together, the next best option is to individually mill the components. Ball mill the nitrate on it's own to make a very fine powder. You can safely mill charcoal and sulfur together as well without any additional risk. With two finely ground materials, screen mixing them, and granulating as you see fit can produce serviceable black powder. You'll get the best results from using a reactive charcoal still, such as willow, alder, paulownia, etc. just to name a few. I've seen this work, and there was a seminar about it a few years ago at a WPAG event. The black powder isn't quite as hot as milling everything together, but safety is more important than having to use a little extra lift. http://wpag.us/learn/How%20To%20Make%20Black%20Powder.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SideGlance Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 Huh interesting anyone want to show a test between milled and unmilled bp ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 First, there are a few ball mill incidents each year but very few compared to the number of ball mills producing powder at any time.Second the damage is smaller for a small mill or the other way round it's a disproportionately excessive crater for a bigger mill -use a small mill.Usually running the mill outside is enough, if it doesn't annoy the neighbours with noise. Finally use appropriate PPE Overalls gloves and face shield. Remember also that pyrotechnics isn't a risk free hobby, really if you don't want to accept small burns then -play the piano or go swimming instead. Ultimately accidents happen to spectators at professional shows, very rarely but they can still happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted July 17, 2015 Share Posted July 17, 2015 In our (november) firework season I expect to get a small burn most nights, BUT I do expect them to be small enough to heal in a week. If your prior burns injury actually makes you unduely likely to suffer bad burns, then get out of fireworks NOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norwest Posted July 17, 2015 Author Share Posted July 17, 2015 Having cooked professionally, done quite a bit of welding, blacksmithing and glassworking I have received many small to moderate burns which is no big deal as I have developed a high pain threshold after being more severely burned as a child. Ball mill accidents would result in severe burns and trauma which does not appeal to me. I have welding gloves and jacket as well as Lexan face shield which would provide some protection. A note from personal experience, although cotton is way better than synthetics when it comes to burns it may not be very protective. I got burned when some sparks from a barbecue ignited my cotton jeans. They immediately ignited and fully engulfed me in fire. This was before the days of using fire retardants/treatment on fabrics. There was some though that there may have been some treatment or other material mixed in with the cotton that made them highly flammable. I was very lucky as my mother knew enough to tackle me as I was running around on fire and roll me on the grass. My dad was a Doc so he quickly put me in a bath of icewater and cut off my burnt cloths. Three months in bandages but no skin grafts were required. Despite this experience I am not afraid of fire or minor burns just not what would result from a mill explosion. Cheers, Thomas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clarkie752 Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Norwest, I tried doing the Skylighter red gum alcohol method and followed it to the tee and it did not make good enough black powder for lift or break. I did use 15 grams of it to lift a 3 inch shell and it went about 100 feet in the air and came back down. I then got a cheap mill from harbor freight and upgraded it per the Skylighter article and had bp that worked for lift and break. Although the bp kit from Skylighter doesn't make super fast bp it is useable. Good luck and stay safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonflightpyro Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Huh interesting anyone want to show a test between milled and unmilled bp ? There is a very extensive experiment article on various BP making methods http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/high-powered-black-powder.asp The writer seemed to have acceptable results only screen mixing chemicals. Edited July 21, 2015 by Dragonflightpyro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 Clarkie752's experience and the skylighter tests basically mirror my observations of the WPAG tests. The powder comes out somewhere in the vicinity of acceptable. It wont be blazing hot, but it will work. Clarkie, I bet if you tried 0.75oz or more, the shell would have gotten to an acceptable height Using a good charcoal, and screen mixing everything together yields something comparable to commercial BP. I suspect making it a little finer (ie 3 or 4FA) for lift might help things. There will be some testing involved to figure out the proper amount for lift. You may have to use more than other people with ball milled BP, but that's a small price to pay to be able to make it more safely. Also, for what it's worth, larger shells seem to be more tolerant of lower quality BP. It's these small guys under a pound that show the most dramatic differences. I've always found that there is sort of a critical mass for lift for these types of things. 15g might be anemic, but 20g is plenty. Confining the lift some also seems to help in my experience. Norwest, I tried doing the Skylighter red gum alcohol method and followed it to the tee and it did not make good enough black powder for lift or break. I did use 15 grams of it to lift a 3 inch shell and it went about 100 feet in the air and came back down. I then got a cheap mill from harbor freight and upgraded it per the Skylighter article and had bp that worked for lift and break. Although the bp kit from Skylighter doesn't make super fast bp it is useable. Good luck and stay safe. There is a very extensive experiment article on various BP making methods http://www.skylighter.com/fireworks/how-to-make/high-powered-black-powder.asp The writer seemed to have acceptable results only screen mixing chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apex61 Posted August 8, 2015 Share Posted August 8, 2015 Is it best to buy a premade mill or just to make one yourself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubehage Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Is it best to buy a premade mill or just to make one yourself?It's always best to make one yourself; if you can Buying a premade mill has the advantage of being easy and 100% working. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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