coogan1997 Posted June 15, 2015 Share Posted June 15, 2015 (edited) I am just about ready to pickup some rocket tooling from firesmith.com. Being my first set i just can't decide between the universal and super bp set. Ideally i would like to lift 3" balls with the 4oz set with bp propellant. Is 4oz set a good place to start or should i just go straight on to the 1lb set? Also i would like to move up to whistle soon as well! Edited June 15, 2015 by coogan1997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Sorry I had not replied to your PM earlier. If I had to choose 1 and only 1 set of rocket tooling, it would be the 1 pound (3/4") Universal Tooling from Firesmith. This size of motor can lift a respectable header, but does not take a large amount of propellant or other materials to build. It is the most popular size of rocket for the hobbiest for a good reason. I don't make the hottest BP, but I think it would be a stretch to lift a 3" shell on 4 Oz (1/2") tooling with BP alone. However, a 3/4" BP rocket will easily lift 3" and 4" ball shells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrokid Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 It's been a while since I've made any 1 lb. rockets, as they are more difficult for me to shoot. They do really go through BP compared to 4oz. rockets though. Nater is right that 1lb. is the "best" size, but I would suggest starting smaller. A good 4oz. rocket will still have good lifting capabilities on good BP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogan1997 Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 I thought of going with the 1lb universal set but there are a couple of things holding me back. First off, i would like to shoot of a bunch of rockets with out attracting too much attention. Secondly im really interested in making whistle rockets and I've been told its not possible to make 1lb whistle on a 1 ton arbor press. About whistles, specially 4oz ones. If i decide to go with the 4oz size and make whistles, what would you guys say performs better between a pusher core or the universal set? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 If all you have is an arbor press, then I would definitely go with the 1/2" set. People have pressed 3/4" motors with 2 ton arbor presses, but I have seen them damage the press teeth too. I don't know what a "pusher" motor is. I am aware it is an option on the popular rocket tool sketcher site, but other than that I have never seen one fly. Ben did make me a 1/2" universal set, and I do like it. So far I have made nozzled and nozzleless BP, hybrid #2 and a few breeds of benzoate whistles which have all flown well. A 3" shell can be lifted with whistle on these little motors, but I still think BP only would be stretching their power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 Here's a little more info on the "pusher" design. http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/rockets/erich/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeee Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 The Super BP spindle design works well with multiple types of fuels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldspark Posted June 16, 2015 Share Posted June 16, 2015 I agree with pyrokid the 3/4 eats a lot of material compared to the 1/2 inch and the 1/2 inchers are a lot of fun and blows the class c stuff out of the water.The 5/8 size from one of the tooling makers would be a good choice, can still be pressed on the small arbor press and with my skinny spindle set (Caleb makes a couple of different types in 5/8) I can lift a 3 inch ball shell with no problem. The skinny spindle works great with hot whistle also, its a short rocket that is becoming my "quick fix". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogan1997 Posted June 16, 2015 Author Share Posted June 16, 2015 Hmm, those who have worked with whistles, do any of you know around how much comp it takes to press an 8oz 5/8" in the UH spindle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xtreme Pyro Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Hmm, those who have worked with whistles, do any of you know around how much comp it takes to press an 8oz 5/8" in the UH spindle? I'd guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40g of comp, depending on tube length of course. My 4oz pusher core whistles get about 25g of fuel, and the 1# pushers get about 55 last time I checked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogan1997 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) I'd guess somewhere in the neighborhood of 35-40g of comp, depending on tube length of course. My 4oz pusher core whistles get about 25g of fuel, and the 1# pushers get about 55 last time I checked. What? Thats crazy, i thought i read somewhere that 4oz rocket take about 12-15g! I guess the article referred strictly to bp If it really take that much comp to press a whistle rocket... well then 4oz it is! Edited June 17, 2015 by coogan1997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Volume of a solid object increases exponentially when the diameter and length are increased. I use somewhere around 10-15 grams of comp in a 1/2" rocket, 50-60 in a 3/4" and about 120 or more in a 1" motor with a long spindle. Short cored whistles use less. I generally mix 1 kg of whistle at a time for rockets. For BP motors I mix a little more it I am making different delay effects. Larger rockets and shells start to use quite a bit more comp. This is one reason why most pyros make their own BP and buy certain certain chems in bulk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Get the super bp set... Nate pushes the uh set because he has so many of them. Even Ben will recommend the super bp tooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) I only have 3 of the universal sets. I push them because I can recommend them with an informed opinion. I don't feel right recommending a set of tooling I have never used. If someone wants to sponsor me on some tooling, I would be glad to offer an unbiased review. I also recommend Steve K's quick and dirty tooling with taper pin spindles for whistle motors. I still need to fly a BP motor on it. Edited June 17, 2015 by nater Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogan1997 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) If it is not much trouble, could one of you please explain to me the "pros and cons" of each? For example what advantage would the super bp set have over the universal and vice versa. I know that the universal set has a slightly shorter and fatter spindle so it allows you to use a hotter fuel. Edited June 17, 2015 by coogan1997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 By the way, you should tell Coogan how much propellant your big motors take... I am also planning a project which should use a 2-3 pounds of rocket propellant, 10 pounds or more of stars and an unknown amounts of lift, burst, polverone and vitamin f in 4-5 cues. That is still small time too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The pros of the universal set is it will take a hot powder with a nozzle and still fly. It almost takes an effort to CATO something. The downside is that tamer fuels turn rockets into upside down fountains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogan1997 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 I see... so it either one extreme or the other huh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 To an extent it is, with a -standard- BP spindle (I have one of those too) you have some options for hot fuels too. You can leave the nozzle out and use straight hot BP and make a nice rocket. You can also use whistle and a slower BP in a hybrid type blend or pressed on the spindle in layers. Use the faster fuel on the bottom a days vary how many increments of whistle to BP based upon the performance you get. These methods take some testing to get right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 The super bp is easier to work with using basic rocket formulas. I'd also recommend getting the 3/4" ID and hand ramming them. Then if you really like rockets, get one of those DAKE presses. They're only $300 delivered, and put out a full ten tons of force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogan1997 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 (edited) Then if you really like rockets, get one of those DAKE presses. They're only $300 delivered, and put out a full ten tons of force.Believe me i LOVE rockets. They are by far my favorite firework! Especially the whistle kind About the 1 lb rocket, shipping tubes to puerto rico is super expensive! Edited June 17, 2015 by coogan1997 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Have you tried rolling your own? I used to be able to get a stick, tube and 3" hemi for a 3/4" rocket for about $3 shipped, but the prices on NEPT are going up, regardless of shipping costs down to you. There has also been recent concern about the quality of new batches of NEPT. For me, the smaller tubes are still affordable for regular use, but 1" and larger are getting pricey. I want to be able to make my own tubes before considering 1.5" or 2" motors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coogan1997 Posted June 17, 2015 Author Share Posted June 17, 2015 I tried a couple time just to compare the size between the tubes because i was having a really tough time deciding ( i still am lol ) but they didn't turn out great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddewees Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I forgot you were one of those fake Americans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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