Preliminary discussion/info for making Dragon's Eggs

[stix]

In the next few weeks I'd like to give DE's a try.

 

I've done a lot of reading on this forum and elsewhere but there is some confusing and conflicting info that I've read that would be good to get some opinions on.

 

I have all the components, and this is the formula I'll be using (unless convinced otherwise):

 

37.5% bismuth trioxide
37.5% black copper(II) oxide
25.0% magnalium

 

+10% NCL

 

I got the formula from this article:

http://www.wichitabuggywhip.com/fireworks/dragonseggs.html#lloyd

 

The main contributors to that article being Mike Swisher and Lloyd Sponenburgh, so a big thumbs up there - although I'm not sure how old the article is and therefore some of the info may not be relevant or up to date, or new things have come to light since it was written.

 

One of the conflicting issues is regarding "nitrate contamination or leeching" from the surrounding star matrix. From what I read elsewhere a wax coating is a common solution but then I read this (from the link above):

 

There has been much - very much - posted on this. However, there has been a lot of misinformation about them. Almost everything stated about nitrate leeching and how to prevent it is, at the least, skewed and probably incorrect. You don't need to wax them, they will last at least two years once made and primed (I tested specifically with prime, without prime, with and without wax). The best formulas are the simple ones. My recommendation is to keep it simple until you know what the basic product will do.

 

In any case, I'll likely wax them as it doesn't seem like a huge procedure.

 

The other thing I'm a bit confused about is making the NC Lacquer. I have some single-based smokeless powder which I was considering using instead of ping pong balls. However I did read somewhere to use only double-based, and then somewhere else to use only single-base, then I read it doesn't matter. So it would be good to know what to people on this forum have used to success.

 

Then there's the prime - monocapa is out of the question as I don't have KClO4. The other possibility is Potassium Dichromate which is referred to in the article above. Although it talks about rolling:

 

...Make up a saturated solution of potassium dichromate as your rolling solvent. DO NOT USE plain water....

 

It doesn't say what to use instead of water. Potassium Dichromate seems very toxic, so I would rather not go there and perhaps I won't need to prime anyway.

 

My aim is to pump a matrix star/comet with a glitter formula. DE's embedded into the comp only at the top 3rd. The outside and top will be inhibited with Al tape - the theory being that at apex there would be a nice little 'finale'. My gut feeling is that no prime would be needed as the metals would be hot enough.

 

Opinions/comments/ideas welcome and appreciated.

 

btw. The linked article is definitely worth a read.

 

Cheers.

[db5086]

Stix, I've made Lloyds eggs and Jopetes as well. I prefer Jopetes they performed so much better and did not have to burn as long before popping. They were louder as well. I've no experience with a single based powder so can only suggest using a double based. It works perfectly. About priming. The prime has to be hot enough and thick enough to consume the entire egg to get it simmering. Monocapa worked best for me but I guess that's out. I did have limited success using bp mill with about 70% of the eggs popping. Maybe a little silicon added to it would help. Unprimed eggs were use as starters for rolled stars and were also mixed into several cut comps for effect. The eggs did very well so putting them in your comet comp should work fine unprimed.

[mabuse00]

I got my best results with Jopetes (lead based) formula too, but I'm struggling with the dragonflower coating.

I used 200mesh MgAl and a commercial laquer for guitars ect. I bet it has a lot of other ingredients, but seems to work fine.

 

 

My gut feeling is that no prime would be needed as the metals would be hot enough.

Only if you use at least 200 mesh or finer MgAl.

 

My feeling in general is that coarse magnalium makes things complicated. Not only priming, but also the slow burn- or rather glowrate. The eggs are cooled down and extinguished when flying through the air, although they work fine when tested on the ground.

Maybe that's why some people are so keen on aggressive burning binders.

 

 

Concerning dichromate, I'm not sure but does that protect against nitrates?

I was under the impresion that it does not.

[stix]

Thanks db,

 

Yeah, I've read about Silicon powder as part of a primer for a lot of comps. You would think that it should be easy to get, but not here in Oz.

 

That's fine - ok - then I have to deal with what I have. So the eggs in a comet unprimed looks like the way to go. I'm happy with that.

 

Normally I hammer ram/press my comets. Not a good idea with DE's from what I have read. So I now have to come up with a way of pressing them. I've read they are also sensitive to friction, so when extracting from the mold piece why is friction not an issue? Obviously it can't be that bad otherwise it would not be done, or am I missing something?

 

Thanks for the info, Cheers.

[stix]

I got my best results with Jopetes (lead based) formula too, but I'm struggling with the dragonflower coating.

I used 200mesh MgAl and a commercial laquer for guitars ect. I bet it has a lot of other ingredients, but seems to work fine.

 

Only if you use at least 200 mesh or finer MgAl.

 

My feeling in general is that coarse magnalium makes things complicated. Not only priming, but also the slow burn- or rather glowrate. The eggs are cooled down and extinguished when flying through the air, although they work fine when tested on the ground.

Maybe that's why some people are so keen on aggressive burning binders.

 

 

Concerning dichromate, I'm not sure but does that protect against nitrates?

I was under the impresion that it does not.

 

Thanks Mabuse, I didn't see your response as I was responding to db's post.

 

I think my MgAl is around 200 mesh (portland cement consistency?) - it has worked well for glitter comps so I'll stick with that assumption.

 

Jopetes? Yourself and db have mentioned Jopetes. I have no idea what comp or chems or methods are involved. It's 1am here now so I will have to investigate tomorrow.

 

I appreciate your comments.

 

Cheers.

[JOPETES]

these are the three ways to apply priming on cores cracker correctly and efficiently.He also is explained in my manual Pdf posted on this forum.

 

if you want to get crackling effect flower add ferro-titanium or titanium 200-250micras to CRACKLE PRIME mixture, for example 10-15%.

 

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

That is the formula I have had the best luck with and what I would recommend.

 

Nitrate doesn't seem to be the issue and probably more likely water that makes it's way in during priming. But if you use sufficient NC it isn't an issue. I have never tried the wax but it is supposed to help if not enough NC is added and likely doesn't hurt anything.

 

Dichromate isn't needed in normal size batches. It puts a protective layer on the MgAl so it doesn't react with water in very large batches of eggs. The company Lloyd worked for made 5 lb batches and had a bunch of granules get rained on and was steaming when they were found if I remember correctly. In a normal size batch that is primed and allowed to dry as normal this shouldn't be a problem and most people don't use it.

 

I would use your smokeless powder instead of ping pong balls as it's actually NC. I also use 200 mesh MgAl with that formula and it works well. You will know if it's the right size by how your eggs behave. Sometimes they need to be tuned with different sizes of metal. I would use BP to prime with a little aluminum added to get it a bit hotter. Actually any metal can be used so use whatever is easiest for you to get. You can also add 5-10% Ti to the Dragon egg comp to get the spark effect instead of the coating that contains the metal.

 

I haven't noticed Dragon eggs being all that sensitive but smack some with a hammer and see how they behave. It doesn't seem to burn fast like flash and only so much seems to be consumed before popping. So I can't imagine a whole container being able to all go at once. It really needs a good amount of heat to get the metal to melt and the reaction going. It may be able to spark with friction or shock but I don't see a spark causing a bunch of comp to ignite. But that's my opinion and you should be careful and try to do some of your own testing.

[Shunt]

That is the formula I have had the best luck with and what I would recommend.

 

Nitrate doesn't seem to be the issue and probably more likely water that makes it's way in during priming. But if you use sufficient NC it isn't an issue. I have never tried the wax but it is supposed to help if not enough NC is added and likely doesn't hurt anything.

 

Dichromate isn't needed in normal size batches. It puts a protective layer on the MgAl so it doesn't react with water in very large batches of eggs. The company Lloyd worked for made 5 lb batches and had a bunch of granules get rained on and was steaming when they were found if I remember correctly. In a normal size batch that is primed and allowed to dry as normal this shouldn't be a problem and most people don't use it.

 

I would use your smokeless powder instead of ping pong balls as it's actually NC. I also use 200 mesh MgAl with that formula and it works well. You will know if it's the right size by how your eggs behave. Sometimes they need to be tuned with different sizes of metal. I would use BP to prime with a little aluminum added to get it a bit hotter. Actually any metal can be used so use whatever is easiest for you to get. You can also add 5-10% Ti to the Dragon egg comp to get the spark effect instead of the coating that contains the metal.

 

I haven't noticed Dragon eggs being all that sensitive but smack some with a hammer and see how they behave. It doesn't seem to burn fast like flash and only so much seems to be consumed before popping. So I can't imagine a whole container being able to all go at once. It really needs a good amount of heat to get the metal to melt and the reaction going. It may be able to spark with friction or shock but I don't see a spark causing a bunch of comp to ignite. But that's my opinion and you should be careful and try to do some of your own testing.

 

Ping pong balls made today are Not NC based. Guitar picks, combs, and many other products used to be, but not many today. Go with the double base reloading powders.

[FlaMtnBkr]

Ping pong balls made today are Not NC based. Guitar picks, combs, and many other products used to be, but not many today. Go with the double base reloading powders.

That is what I suggested. Though there are still pp balls made with nitrated cellulose. They have the smell of camphor which is added as a plasticizer. If you burn a piece of one they burn like NC does without ash though not as fierce. Many people successfully use PP balls though they are not ideal especially if you have access to smokeless powder.

 

I have tried single base, double base, and pure NC lint in DE and don't notice a difference except if not enough is used.

[Rocketier]

I just made a batch of Dandalion stars and tested one for closup and slowmotion video. See attachement.

 

The NC laquer used is made with pinppongballs in acetone.
Starter material for the cores is steelshot. 0.3 to 0.8 mm. I spray them with thin laquer till they start sticking.

Then spoon some compo on and with the backside of a spoon i touch them to loosen again.

Continue this till about 1.5mm. Then with NC laquer i put on the priming.

After drying I put on the spark compo till max 3.5mm to 4mm and then priming again with aftewards a layer of bp also done with NC laquer.

I use a starroller to make them.

 

I use the joppetes formulas 70 leadoxide the bp related priming and the spark compo with 34% KNO3.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Rocketier

[db5086]

Nice eggs rocket. That video is outstanding! Very cool. Thanks for sharing.

[Livingston]

I just made a batch of Dandalion stars and tested one for closup and slowmotion video. See attachement.

 

The NC laquer used is made with pinppongballs in acetone.

Starter material for the cores is steelshot. 0.3 to 0.8 mm. I spray them with thin laquer till they start sticking.

Then spoon some compo on and with the backside of a spoon i touch them to loosen again.

Continue this till about 1.5mm. Then with NC laquer i put on the priming.

After drying I put on the spark compo till max 3.5mm to 4mm and then priming again with aftewards a layer of bp also done with NC laquer.

I use a starroller to make them.

 

I use the joppetes formulas 70 leadoxide the bp related priming and the spark compo with 34% KNO3.

 

 

How do make them round cores?

 

Dude please video how you roll your DE???

[JOPETES]

Hello Rocketeer.
What particle size of magnalium you used for composition cracker? ............ I say this because I saw the video and I think a little long the delay from the ignition until the explosion of the core cracker. the explosion seems quite strong.
priming which layers you used, how many layers?

 

[Rocketier]

Started a new batch today on request of Livingston.

 

https://www.youtube.com/embed/yKA4jrCksf0

 

During rolling it's good to screen out the bigger ones severall times. Starter material in the film is 100grams steelshot. For the cores I made a mix of 280gr PB3O4, 60gr CuIIO, 76gr MgAl 63u, 16gr GD Al. For rolling I used the big left rollerdrum on my starroller. For spraying the NC laquer I used a hairspray evaporizer.

@Jopetes The star on the previous movie is a quite big one. About 6mm. To big for use in headers. The biggest I use for headers are between 4mm and 5mm. So this delay was long about 4 seconds after lighting it.
The ones i use in headers go between 2,5 and 3sec. The smaller ones used in gerbs between 1 and 2sec.
But I like it that after a nice bouqet of Buell red stars a big pallet of popping Dandalion light up the sky.

I just put one layer of prime in between te core and spark compo. On top of the sparkcompo I put one nice layer of prime and over that I dust a layer of BP. All layers bound with NC.

Normally when I light a core it will go within the second. When a core is on the big side like 2mm the sound like a big firecracker. Cool!

 

The small crackling test, attached below the pictures, I did with the smaller parts zifted out of the batch. The whole batch is uncoated yet.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Rocketier

[burningRNX]

Hi, Jopete's,

 

Is the antimony trisulfide in your spark composition really nessesairy for the effect? or can I substitute it for sulfur?.

Edited April 10, 2015 by burningRNX

[JOPETES]

Hello Rocketeer. I do not understand well, you mean that in total takes 4capas on core cracker? ................. Only need two layers, the first layer is one containing black powder, parlon , iron oxide,red gum or dextrin (if you want flower effect with titanium sparks you can mix with 15% titanium) and the second layer is black powder and you're in total two layers.

[JOPETES]

hello BurningRNX.
for yellow sequin (yellow glitter) is mixed with antimony trisulfide for greater delay, ie a line of longer sparks, but can be replaced by 8% sulfur and remove antimony trisulfide but the tail of sparks is shorter and more small and dense.

The white sequin (white glitter) should lead antimony trisulfide to produce a line of white sparks, can not be replaced by sulfur, could only be replaced by red iron oxide but the color of the sparks is not as white, but slightly golden .

[Rocketier]

Cracklingcore 1.5 2 mm

Lood trioxide 70

Coperoxide 15

MgAl 63 micron 19

Al Black 4

NC lack 10% NC

 

1e layer prime 1mm

Meal powder met C populier 75

Parlon 12,5

Ironoxide black 8,3

Redgum 5

 

2e layer Spark Composition

34g Potassium nitrate

6g Sulphur

5g Antimony trisulphide

15g Pine Charcoal

30g Titanium (60mesh)

20g Red Gum

 

3e layer prime 1mm

Meal powder met C populier 75

Parlon 12,5

Ironoxide black 8,3

Redgum 5

 

4e layer BP Just dusting it over for ruff edge easy catch fire

Meal powder met C populier

Edited April 11, 2015 by Rocketier

[burningRNX]

Yes, sorry if I was unclear, I mean the spark composition mentioned by Rock, for dandalion effect

[JOPETES]

Rocketier, Ufffff ....Ufffffffff. you are very complicated life. Only is necesary two layers, the first of 1mm to prime the core cracker and the second layer of 1mm maximum to prime the first one is forming a glowing mass that adheres to the core and is the layer first were you can add or mixing required 10 -15% titanium or ferro-titanium to form the flower or Dalia fact, that's it, no need any more layer........This whole thing is already very clearly explained in pdf and in a previous post.

[JOPETES]

simple video of my friend fredhappy starmine yellow lemon stars or pdf + stars crackling flowers with two layers of pdf. the first layer takes titanium added and mixed.

[Rocketier]

I don't think life it is that complicated Jopetes. As a matter affect I think fhe flower bouquet of my Dandalions are richer of sparks than the ones from the yellow lemon mine. When time comes I will make a recording of a result. Two differend approaches both good result. Depending on the desired delay comes the solution. If it is the Dutch Fredhappy it could be that he uses cores which where made at my place.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Rocketier

[j3cub]

I just made a batch of screen sliced through 10 mesh DE using this formula:

 

37.5% bismuth trioxide
37.5% black copper(II) oxide
25.0% magnalium

 

+10% NCL

 

When I test burn them on the ground they burn violently but do not pop.

 

Any ideas on what might be wrong?

 

Thanks

Edited April 12, 2015 by j3cub

[Rocketier]

I would say use: Bismuthtrioxide 30, CoperIIoxide 40, MgAl 63 micron 30, NC lack 10% NC

 

That one I tested a couple of years ago and worked fine.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Rocketier

[enanthate]

I just made a batch of screen sliced through 10 mesh DE using this formula:

 

37.5% bismuth trioxide

37.5% black copper(II) oxide

25.0% magnalium

 

+10% NCL

 

When I test burn them on the ground they burn violently but do not pop.

 

Any ideas on what might be wrong?

 

Thanks

 

What mesh magnalium?

I use this formula with 70 mesh, and it is perfect. Im guessing you are using 250 or similar?

 

Also, make sure you add enough NC. More is better than less.