mabuse00 Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 (edited) Since "real" cruciform crossette tools aren't easily available here in europe, I wonder what to expect from a tool like this here:https://d2isyty7gbnm74.cloudfront.net/unsafe/646x646/square-production.s3.amazonaws.com/files/86a1ed12fe59e38fc58c9912e793d7e6/original.jpegSecond rammer from the right, that's what I mean. Most likely it will produce a mix of different fragment sizes - might still make a nice effect...?Have you ever tried such a design? Edited March 14, 2015 by mabuse00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 That will make a shatter comet -break into several pieces. the cruciform tool makes a star that breaks into four pieces. The effect is a bit different, but if that's the tools you can get then thats the stars you can make. Ask the usual makers whether they will send you a tool by post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted March 14, 2015 Share Posted March 14, 2015 Crosettes are traditionally made with round holes and hand rolled shots, similar to firecrackers to break them. Build them this way, dial them in and you will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrokid Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 Are there any videos of the mentioned shatter comets? I've only seen failed crossettes but if the effect exists I'd like to see it. Is it possible and practical to attempt to make jetting stars using round shot crossette tooling? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WonderBoy Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 (edited) Here's an example at 23:55, traditional round cavity crossettes: https://youtu.be/nA42JcTZ55Y?t=23m55s WB Edited March 15, 2015 by WonderBoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted March 15, 2015 Share Posted March 15, 2015 I have used round shot crossette tooling before, but I have to say that the size of the shot hole on that tooling is gigantic! Normally they're between 30 and 40% of the diameter of the tooling. IE a 25mm tool should have a shot hole between 7.5 and 10mm. That said, once you get used to them, they're not hard to make right. As a slightly advantage, I find them somewhat less susceptible to cracking or being damaged when removing the tooling. When you make them correctly, round shot crossettes will still typically break into 3-5 or 6 pieces. When in a shell with many other crossettes, they difference between exactly 4 and this is basically not noticeable. Even the cruciform cavity tooling tends to have some degree of fragmentation. It's only for single fire comets that I really strive for exactly 4. There is a rather labor intensive way to ensure that you get exactly 4 by pre-cutting the walls of the comet. Alternatively, using a quadrant pump in combination with a normal comet would work, though that is an additional piece of tooling you'd need to purchase. If you want, I can send you or post the information I have saved on making the shots to break them, and the information on how to get them to break into exactly 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mabuse00 Posted March 18, 2015 Author Share Posted March 18, 2015 If you want, I can send you or post the information I have saved on making the shots to break them, and the information on how to get them to break into exactly 4.Please do Is it really necessary to do these "hand rolled shots"? I wonder if an uncontrolled fragmentation wont lead to a lot of unlit pieces?I dont mean blown out ones, but since the crossette can only take fire from the uncovered an primed ignition side - what happens if the lines of breakage dont go from the ignition side to the bottom but rather around the crossette?(Do you understand what I mean?) Another question:What is in your opinion the smallest practical size do cruciform or round shot crossettes? I figure the breakcharge issue will be less problematic in larger sizes? I prefer 4" or smaller headers/shells, so I'd like to stay under 1". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nater Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 The hand rolled shots increase confinement. A friend found they were necessary with his techniques using a dark report mix to get uniform breaks, crisp timing and no jetting. I apologize that I cannot comment from first hand knowledge as I am just now making my first crosette comets as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrW Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 For breaking my limited number of x-ette (crucifix shape) I use granulated whistle mix. Gives a crisp break and not noticable flash. However I have only made a few dozen using wolters tooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrokid Posted March 18, 2015 Share Posted March 18, 2015 What formulas are you guys using? I just put together a little round shot crossette tool and I need to make some comets. This is the best time of year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livingston Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Any glitter or charcoal base formula will work great for crossettes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mumbles Posted April 13, 2015 Share Posted April 13, 2015 Oops. forgot about the offer for info. The below information is from John Reilly, whom is a talented traditional fireworker. I'd try out both his method and the method in fulcanelli to see what you like best. I'll see if I can find the stuff on the breaking into exactly 4 pieces. Basically you paste the comet, use a hacksaw to cut the cavity into 4 pieces, and then finish as normal with a shot. Retrieved from rec.pyro on 1/4/10. Originally posted on 6/6/06 by John Reilly http://groups.google.com/group/rec.pyrotechnics/browse_thread/thread/ad1938a90753687a/70aab6618a1aa20b?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=John+Reilly+rolled+shots#70aab6618a1aa20b The method described in Fulcanelli part II is the traditional Italianmethod and is the best in my opinion. The stringing of the hole shotsas described is an art. The dried shots are cut apart and the stringears overlap the cavity end of the crossette star and are held in plaseby the pasted paper crown when finishing the loaded star. The stringkeeps the shot from falling through the burned open cavity as the cometis spinning through the air. I cheat a little and use 3" gummed papertape to roll the shots using a 4 point crimp to close one end beforepunching and fusing.For the 1-1/4" comet shots I take a 5/16" diameter piece of woodendowel (mandrel) which is about 4 to 5" long and waxed by rubbing with acandle stub to avoid the paper's sticking to it. One end of thismandrel is bored dead center with an 1/8" hole about 3/8" deep. The 3"gummed kraft paper tape (std. 60# weight) is cut into 3" lengths togive three turns around the mandrel. (One 3" strip gives 5 finished"hole shots". A piece of this paper is placed gum side up with themandrel squared and centered on the edge nearest you. With thumbs andforefingers the first turn of paper is laid on the mandrel and heldtightly against the rolling board with the fingers of the left hand (ifyou're right handed) grabbing the damped sponge and wiping theremaining pasted side of paper to activate the glue. The thin casingis formed with a push of the palm of the hand and rolled firmly backand forth the round and tighten the 3" long tube. The damp tube isslipped up about 1/8" to 3/16" past the drilled end and with athinawl, a 4 point crimp is started on the overlapping paper. (12:00, 3:00,6:00 and 9:00 o'clock positions. The mandrel with the overlap crimpend is smashed smartly down on the rolling table which folds the 4point crimp down on the end of the mandrel. While the mandrel (crimpedtube end) is held tightly against the table the mallet is taken and themandrel is give two or three quick raps to "set" the crimp closed. Theawl is taken and a hole punched in the center of the crimp to allow forthe insertion of the fuse later.The case is slipped up on the mandrel again and with sharp scissors issnipped off (into a small box) so you have a shot tube with one endopen , one end crimped closed and with a fuse hole in the center of thecrimp. This is repeated 4 more times and the another 3" paper strip isrolled and so on till you have 100 "shots" or however many you need.This sounds like it is time consuming but I could have rolled ten shotsin the time it took me to type this.I use either specially made thin fast match or chinese firecracker(tissue) fuse which is cut ahead of time into 3/4" lengths: the fuse isinserted through the hole in the crimp of the shot leaving about 1/4"projecting outside the crimped end. The shots are all fused first andthen loaded. A number of 1-1/4" pcs of thin cotton or flax string arecut (one per shot). First, a shot is taken and a piece of the cutstring dropped into the open end of the shot tube with the tag endhanging out.A scoop of dark report comp. (50/50 mix of KClO3 and Antimony Sulfide)is added to the open end of the shot. A pinch of fairly coarse sawdustis added on top lightly pressing in with the forefinger (string stillhanging out.) Lastly a good smear of white glue (PVA) is run acrossthe sawdust (keeping the string end out of the way). Set them aside todry. When the shots are loaded into the star cavity the string laysacross the comet end. The comets get a 1-1/4" very thin chipboard discon the end (holding the string) before the kraft pastewrap is pleateddown over the shot end. (The chipboard disc helps keep the paste fromsoaking into the star). There are many method and tricks to crackingcrossettes and this is just one way I find convenient and workable forme. There is no "correct" technique except the one you find reliableand feel comfortable with. Flash powder (70/30 KClO4 to blackhead orsimilar fine flake aluminum) will work fine with these shots too. Ionly use the black antimony and chlorate to avoid the bright flash'John ------------------------------------------------------------ From 6/13/06, same source and acquisition date Hi Tes. When I "star crimp" small tubes like these, I simply use thepointed 1/2" or so of an awl or ice pick. I've made little awls bytaking the sharp ended pivot pin from a cheap metal compass and turninga little wooden handle on a mini lathe. Drill a hole in the handle usegood 2 part epoxy cement to secure it. I use the same awl to crimp thetubes and ream the hole for the fuse in crossette shots (don't have toswitch hands or tools). This is how I've made 1/4" or 5/16" borebottle rockets since the mid 60s as well. I posted the method 6 monthsor so ago on how to make those with strips of gummed kraft tape. The"core" is formed by simply twisting and pushing the awl point about ahalf or 5/8" through the center of the star crimp and into the rammedfuel core. Quick and easy and they work great with "chrysanthemum 6"fuel. If the hole shots were a bit larger in diameter, I could use a.410 shotshell crimp starter die but it's so quick with the 4 point"crimp and slam" technique that I don't worry about it. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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