WARNING TO ALL HOBBIEST's , visco is now REGULATED by BATFE

[taiwanluthiers]

I'd even be careful where you talk about the 10 commandments these days... because it is not politically correct to talk about God and some atheists or muslims might find it offensive...

 

I'd say that most cops don't understand Federal gun or explosive laws. If they think you aren't allowed to have it, they will arrest you and let the courts decide that. Also these days it doesn't even take a conviction to be discriminated for having a criminal record. Even an arrest is bad enough (doesn't matter if the court found you not guilty)

[vizzer]

 

Any thoughts on what I said up there anyone?

Apart from discussing the relative merits of living in this country (the USA), the apparent intent behind the law, and the fact that I wish I'd bought several hundred feet when I first thought about it? It may be possible to form a trust to purchase visco, much like the ones that can be used to purchase suppressors for firearms. Though the amount of time it takes to do so is discouraging.

[Sparx88]

Playgrounds are my favorite spots...

 

[Video]

That's pretty cool, barium nitrate green? Was it all 1 tube?

[dagabu]

Not at all what I was talking about. You can't have this stuff laying around the candy isle or lighting stuff off at the playground. I agree on the 10 commandments comment you should know that, we've talked.

 

Sparx, I am sorry, that was most certainly not a put down and yes, I remember you and thought you would get the inference and not be offended. Please accept my apology for that.

 

As far as the part of leaving it around the candy isle.... I bought my first .22 from the SEARS catalog all by myself when I was 12. I sent in a cashiers check and the order form, two week later, I had a shiny, new Marlin Micro Groove .22 in my hands. I am NOT a person that believes in helicopter parents, wrapping kids in bubble wrap or sheltering them from death or pain. All six of my kids have shot that very same .22 when they were 4 years old, they went shooting (and still do) with me and my wife and understand the dangers involved with fire, guns, booze etc.

 

I think any overactive boy that wants to light a short fused fire cracker in his hand should definitely be given the opportunity to do so. Every boy in my neighborhood did just that, we all screamed like holy hell and cried for hours but we NEVER told Mom or Dad, we learned and moved on. Yes, there is irony to be read here but trust me, any of you can have an accident at any time, so lets leave that alone.

 

That all said, its our own choice to coddle or not.

[dagabu]

Apart from discussing the relative merits of living in this country (the USA), the apparent intent behind the law, and the fact that I wish I'd bought several hundred feet when I first thought about it? It may be possible to form a trust to purchase visco, much like the ones that can be used to purchase suppressors for firearms. Though the amount of time it takes to do so is discouraging.

 

No need, it is available in 5000' rolls for just a couple hundred dollars still. Make the trip to Gillette Wyoming for PGI convention and you can get all you want with NO paper trail of any kind!!!!

[vizzer]

Hmm. I've never been to Wyoming. But won't all those fireworks ruin the beautiful night sky??

 

Heh.

[dagabu]

Hmm. I've never been to Wyoming. But won't all those fireworks ruin the beautiful night sky??

 

Heh.

 

Yes vizzer, yes they will!

[nater]

No, the fireworks will compliment the beautiful night sky.

[vizzer]

So, referencing the law the article talks about at http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/27/555.141one of the exemptions listed is:

(4) Small arms ammunition and components of small arms ammunition.

 

Going to the definitions section at http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?rgn=div5&node=27:3.0.1.3.5#se27.3.555_111for the definition of ammunition:

Ammunition. Small arms ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or smokeless propellants designed for use in small arms, including percussion caps, and 3⁄32 inch and other external burning pyrotechnic hobby fuses. The term does not include black powder.

 

All just as the ATF article says.

 

But every law is subject to interpretation. Not being a lawyer, I might not get the meaning of "and 3/32 inch and other external burning pyrotechnic hobby fuses". All the commas involved in the sentence on ammunition exemptions make it difficult to see exactly what the "and" is linking to: "or smokeless propellants..." or "small arms ammunition". I think that makes an important difference.

 

John

[ddewees]

That's pretty cool, barium nitrate green? Was it all 1 tube?

Yes, all one tube... but the barium nitrate/AP green is press above the clay nozzle so the AP doesn't have issues with the bp comp below.

[Sparx88]

Yes, all one tube... but the barium nitrate/AP green is press above the clay nozzle so the AP doesn't have issues with the bp comp below.

 

Did you use ti?

 

Dag no problem here brother. I've been worked up all week with some other things and was posting in a bad mood. Sorry

[ddewees]

Titanium was in the fountain comp, not the green.

[alexpyro101]

Is there any way we could try to petition to get this law changed? There seems to be a lot of knowledgeable adults on this forum, some of which have to know about politics and lawmaking/changing. Just remember odds are you or me can't do anything about these sorts of laws, but together maybe we could change something.

[Nessalco]

Is there any way we could try to petition to get this law changed? There seems to be a lot of knowledgeable adults on this forum, some of which have to know about politics and lawmaking/changing. Just remember odds are you or me can't do anything about these sorts of laws, but together maybe we could change something.

 

Sure thing. Got a million dollars?

 

That may sound facetious, but I'm speaking literally. When the rocket crowd (successfully) challenged the ATF's classification of APCP, the suit took 9 years and nearly a million in legal fees.

 

Kevin

Edited January 15, 2015 by Nessalco

[taiwanluthiers]

But I think there's also less chance of a mishap in the rocket crowds because they aren't mixing pyrotechnic compositions or making bp (which can lead to fires and explosion... try dealing with homeowner's insurance on that). The shoot site is insured through NAR/TRA as well. They also showed that APCP can't possibly explode under storage conditions, which is hard to say for visco.

 

PGI also represents various manufacturers, some of whom have a lot of resources. So They should be able to make the petition if they feel the need to.

[nater]

A segment in the HPR community most certainly does mix up their own APCP motors. The PGI does not have the resources for major lobbying either. They have been able to accomplish a few things related to transporting to the convention, but time and funds are precious and not there for large scale efforts. It has been discussed ad nauseam already. Edited January 15, 2015 by nater

[dagabu]

Is there any way we could try to petition to get this law changed? There seems to be a lot of knowledgeable adults on this forum, some of which have to know about politics and lawmaking/changing. Just remember odds are you or me can't do anything about these sorts of laws, but together maybe we could change something.

 

I am reposting this from Danny Creagan, the President of PGI in relation to this whole issue:

 

"Yes. I contacted EIPB and they replied this morning. The newsletter simply

restates the rules we've always been under. The UN exemptions still apply.

If the fuse is marked with UN0336 or UN0337 or (UN0431 or UN0432 Articles

Pyrotechnic) then it is exempt from storage. There will be some updates to

the Articles Pyrotechnic UN numbers coming down the pipe but for now, those

are still all exempt if your product has those numbers. The ATF has

advertised the Articles Pyrotechnic thing for a couple of years now so

nothing new has been released.

 

Note that DOT classifications (EX or transportation codes like 1.4) do not

apply (and never did). For storage exemption, the ATF only uses the four UN

numbers that are in the Orange Book (see (555.141 (a)(7), 336, 337, 431, or

432)). Be sure your fuse has the proper designation. If it doesn't or if

your seller didn't send the label with it, then you should store it in a

magazine (note this is the way it has always been).

 

Dan"

 

This all means that the BATFE didnt change anything, the laws are still the same, this just clarifies the UN markings, nothing more.

 

Keep Calm

Mind Your Fuse

[dagabu]

But I think there's also less chance of a mishap in the rocket crowds because they aren't mixing pyrotechnic compositions or making bp (which can lead to fires and explosion... try dealing with homeowner's insurance on that). The shoot site is insured through NAR/TRA as well. They also showed that APCP can't possibly explode under storage conditions, which is hard to say for visco.

 

PGI also represents various manufacturers, some of whom have a lot of resources. So They should be able to make the petition if they feel the need to.

 

Not so, reloadable casings are available to the HPR community nad have been for some years. In the club I was a member of, ANY homemade motors were classified as Experimental and special waivers (club) and permissions had to be given with G and under motors. TRA may be mellowing out a bit now but 15 years ago, they didn't allow hand made motors and still don't allow non commercial casings (I think).

 

I had to get a magazine, store them and the ignitors and ejection charge (yes, Virginia, there is a Black Powder in HPR) in a magazine and get the insurance and ATF permit. The one thing that was different? I could store the magazine in my garage along with the cars. Pyro? Not so much...

[taiwanluthiers]

NAR doesn't allow homemade motors at all, TRA allows for experimental rocketry but since I never joined TRA, I can't comment on what their rules are. They seem to try to distance themselves from pyro in general to avoid ATF scrutiny.

[dagabu]

NAR doesn't allow homemade motors at all, TRA allows for experimental rocketry but since I never joined TRA, I can't comment on what their rules are. They seem to try to distance themselves from pyro in general to avoid ATF scrutiny.

 

True that, from TAR:

 

7.0 Experimental Motor Altitude Competition- Individual

The purpose of the experimental motor altitude competition is to challenge contestants to achieve the highest possible altitude for each motor class. These Tripoli altitude records will recognize these individuals whose rockets have attained the highest altitudes.

The following rules apply to EX motor competitions-

1. Only individuals are permitted to enter into this EX competition. No groups allowed. The contestant must make the motor and the rocket to qualify.
2. The term “Experimental motor” in this activity shall mean any motor made by that specific individual consisting of AP and AN based motors.
3. All individuals engaged in motor manufacturing, shall not be permitted to compete individually even if they make the motor separate from their business activity.
4. All rockets having motors in class 75 mm and above must have dual electronics onboard, and the results of the two will be averaged to arrive at the altitude.
5. Tripoli Research Safety Codes, dated April 1, 2002 must be followed for each flight.
6. Only single motor configuration flights allowed in this category.
7. All attempted altitude flights must have the Tripoli contest application submitted to Prefect on site, at time of RSO review to qualify. Prefect must sign-off the application form prior to flight and maintain the form until retrieved rocket is returned for altitude verification. Prefect must witness altitude verification as one of the witnesses.

Edited January 15, 2015 by dagabu

[Maserface]

I made a flowchart for all of you who have a hard time reading more than one sentence in a sitting.

 

Here it is

 

It assumes that the UN numbers on the labels are actually legitimate.

[dagabu]

Awesome Maser!

 

http://i.imgur.com/cAlfWg6.png

[walran]

Maybe I am coming in late to the party here but I am going to just go out there and say... well... what is the difference in your having a fuse in a roll of 25' & your having a bag of fireworks with the fuses attached? You still have 25' of fuse but now its in a smoke bomb, shell etc. etc.

 

I am in a very litigious field and sometimes people worry about the ridiculous.

 

Visco is still easily obtainable and you don't have to show ID for it.

 

Have never heard of anyone being arrested for having it and couldn't find any one on the net either who had it in anything other than a pipe bomb etc..

[Richtee]

 

Have never heard of anyone being arrested for having it and couldn't find any one on the net either who had it in anything other than a pipe bomb etc..

We like to refrain from these kinda phrases, sir... they ARE watching

 

And you now met quite a few folks who have visco for other reasons

[BB789]

Awesome Maser!

 

http://i.imgur.com/cAlfWg6.png

This is very helpful. However, I have noticed that on the packaging of a lot of fuse websites (pyrodirect, cannonfuse, skylighters) etc. That the fuse is labelled as safety fuse UN0105. Wouldn't this make the fuse illegal, because it's not labelled as UN0336, 37 or UN0451, 52? Or am I missing something here.