MrB Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 EU decided stuff like KClO4, KClO3, NH4CLO4... is to dangerous, and needs to be banned, but for what ever reason NH4NO3 isn't really an issue, and can remain unregulated. Anyway, since what EU sets as guidelines doesn't actually have to be implemented, i was sort of wondering... Is there countries in EU that wont be banning sales?I'm looking to get the store filled up, and then some, but even if i decide to go for 2 full bags of the stuff (KClO4 primarily, i use it almost exclusively, since i'm sort of sticking to the Veline color system, and i use it for my binary flash powder salutes.) it's going to run out sooner or later. Would be nice to know if a (per)clorate cell will be my only option at that point, or if there will remain sources available, even if it might take longer roadtrips then i'd usually be willing to take. Anyways, just thought i'd ask, it IS a question us EU pyros should be concerned with, and i know i saw something about it earlier, but i cant seam to find it...B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie1016 Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 EU decided stuff like KClO4, KClO3, NH4CLO4... is to dangerous, and needs to be banned, but for what ever reason NH4NO3 isn't really an issue, and can remain unregulated. Anyway, since what EU sets as guidelines doesn't actually have to be implemented, i was sort of wondering... Is there countries in EU that wont be banning sales?I'm looking to get the store filled up, and then some, but even if i decide to go for 2 full bags of the stuff (KClO4 primarily, i use it almost exclusively, since i'm sort of sticking to the Veline color system, and i use it for my binary flash powder salutes.) it's going to run out sooner or later. Would be nice to know if a (per)clorate cell will be my only option at that point, or if there will remain sources available, even if it might take longer roadtrips then i'd usually be willing to take. Anyways, just thought i'd ask, it IS a question us EU pyros should be concerned with, and i know i saw something about it earlier, but i cant seam to find it...B!It's not good news at all. Going to have to stock up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mia Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 For the UK you will need an explosive precursors licence which comes in September but you will have 18 months to comply or dispose of your affected chemicals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 In the UK some pyro useful chems will be controlled by the new poisons control and some by the explosive precursors regulations. A presentation to the UKPS at their AGM for the Home Office was quite upbeat about amateur pyro as a legit hobby and there was a licence available for people who wanted precursors and poisons for home pyro. Follow the UK information on the UKPS forum, I'm not going to copy it across. As ever this will apply to Great Britain, Northern Ireland will have it's own enactment of the EU directives. Other EU nations will enact the directives in different ways, then enforce their Acts in various ways. Actually the UKPS AGM concensus was that we LIKED the opportunity to be OUT Proud and LEGAL as amateur pyros. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted April 3, 2014 Author Share Posted April 3, 2014 Other EU nations will enact the directives in different ways, then enforce their Acts in various ways. This is the basis for my question. Actually the UKPS AGM concensus was that we LIKED the opportunity to be OUT Proud and LEGAL as amateur pyros. Wouldn't we all. Only thing is, for you to qualify in Sweden, the base premise is that you own a couple of acres of land, and that you can afford to pay the same inspection costs as an international export producer, handling metric tons of the stuff, when you handle things in the range of "up to" 100 kilo, a year. Bottom line is, there is no way to maintain a legal outset for pyro hobbies in Sweden. There is 1 guy who i read about that managed to get a permit, for storing, and making stuff, and while doing so he managed to negotiate the inspection costs down to, a sum that he apparently isn't allowed to speak about. When you contact the appropriate authorities to talk about a similar agreement, they don't even want to talk to you... Oh, and the guy? His family apparently owns and operates some old farmland. I'm not sure if i'd be willing to go in to farming just to do pyro, seams like a rather expensive change of employment, for one thing. Might be hard to afford.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spitfire Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 Well, in my opinion it doesn't look good at all... sale of oxidizers is going to be banned, and after Sept. 1st, anyone who buys/owns it is considered a ''potential terrrist'' (misspell on purpose...sigh) I'm stocking up already but it makes me feel REALLY uncomfortable, this upcoming law... just emagine we make things to make a crowd happy, to enjoy people... and we are treated like animals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdercks Posted April 3, 2014 Share Posted April 3, 2014 EU decided stuff like KClO4, KClO3, NH4CLO4... is to dangerous, and needs to be banned, but for what ever reason NH4NO3 isn't really an issue, and can remain unregulated. Anyway, since what EU sets as guidelines doesn't actually have to be implemented, i was sort of wondering... Is there countries in EU that wont be banning sales?I'm looking to get the store filled up, and then some, but even if i decide to go for 2 full bags of the stuff (KClO4 primarily, i use it almost exclusively, since i'm sort of sticking to the Veline color system, and i use it for my binary flash powder salutes.) it's going to run out sooner or later. Would be nice to know if a (per)clorate cell will be my only option at that point, or if there will remain sources available, even if it might take longer roadtrips then i'd usually be willing to take. Anyways, just thought i'd ask, it IS a question us EU pyros should be concerned with, and i know i saw something about it earlier, but i cant seam to find it...B!that is some terrible news!, where did you get this information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 (edited) that is some terrible news!, where did you get this information?The Internetz. Actually, a "lot" of resellers are selling out, and making bulk offers on the stuff, lasting until the middle of the September, so i started poking around as to why. Turns out thats when it will become illegal to sell the stuff, if you chose to implement the directive "as is".So i started trying to figure out where it actually came from, and it's here.In the name of anti terrorism, they ban stuff.... that no terrorist would use. Wow. Some insight they got up there in the glass tower... Also, it should be noted, the darn thing is a "directive" that the membership countries can implement, fully, or adjust to their own liking. Sweden went fully overboard, and banned everything they could justify with this document, as always, for everything except snus. Tobacco is for what ever reason holy, everything else is "meh"... I don't get it.B! Edited April 4, 2014 by MrB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 Well first annex 1 and 2 are comming up this year. These basically regulate shipping conditions to private persons (in this case means prohibit). 16 months later the 107/13 (i mean it was 107) is comming into power prohibiting the whole sales and the possesion of listed stuff. As also the free regulation if category 2&3 and giving a watchlist with category 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted April 4, 2014 Author Share Posted April 4, 2014 Pretty much anyone in a country that decides to implement this is out of luck, since regardless of what permits you got, you wont be allowed to buy the stuff anyway. Either it cant be shipped, or you cant posses it. I see pyro as being very marginal down the line.B! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted April 4, 2014 Share Posted April 4, 2014 As the UKPS AGM chat on the topic. The EU directive must be enacted in national law by all member states, BUT exactly how is up to each member state. The UK regs will accept that Pyro is a legitimate hobby and allow pyro people to get a permit to buy chems, so all the usual suspects can continue selling chems to people holding a UK Permit, this will apply to listed poisons like Barium salts as well as precursors. SO the UKPS having been in contact with our authorities for some years now has paid off, we are now trusted and have to live up to the promise. As this EU directive only governs the sale of precursors and poisons to amateur users, then we in the UK have to opportunity to form a registered trading company and buy without hassle through the company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheExplosionist Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 (edited) One more reason to leave the EU. I don't see how any of this can be enforced. Law enforcement here doesn't have enough resources do deal with all the Pakistani rapists and shouldn't be wasting police time on a hobbyist with a few kg's of KCLO4. Edited April 7, 2014 by TheExplosionist 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted April 7, 2014 Author Share Posted April 7, 2014 As this EU directive only governs the sale of precursors and poisons to amateur users, then we in the UK have to opportunity to form a registered trading company and buy without hassle through the company. From the sounds of things, i'll have to befriend UK pyro's. Have em buy stuff, and send it to me, no return address. As long as it doesn't get stuck in the drug screening process... But then again, if someone tries to shoot that stuff, good riddance. Going to try and stock up before the bars shut close, so it wont be for a while yet. ;- ) One more reason to leave the EU. I don't see how any of this can be enforced. Law enforcement here doesn't have enough resources do deal with all the Pakistani rapists and shouldn't be wasting police time on a hobbyist with a few kg's of KCLO4.Any reason to leave EU is a good reason. Somehow i doubt the police will spend a whole lot of resources on this "controlled substance" but, just making it the law means it will be a LOT harder to come buy, especially for cheap. Hell, even KNO3 is hard to come buy in Sweden these days. I've been checking around a bit, and it might just turn out that to get a hold of agriculture grade KNO3, i could very well be forced to buy prilled stuff, and a 720 kilo bag at that. Where the fu** am i supposed to put that? Well, at least i know i can make KNO3/charcoal based starts for the rest of my life without running out... And, with a bit of luck, if the cops ever come around, and decide to confiscate my chems, they start with the KNO3, and quit after half a ton, due to backache.Hey, you never know. One of these days they might run out of rapists. Regardless of nationality ;- ) B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheExplosionist Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 I don't want to derail this thread but the situation regarding foreign born rapists doesn't get any worse than it is in Sweden. Some of the stories I read a while back were shocking, especially one of a teenage girl getting gang raped at a public swimming pool. Back on topic, I still don't see this "directive" shutting down the pyro suppliers in Poland or Eastern Europe. I also doubt that GardenDirect will stop selling sacks of greenhouse grade KNO3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hindsight Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 "...I still don't see this "directive" shutting down the pyro suppliers in Poland or Eastern Europe."--TheExplosionistYou are right that this EU directive won't be shutting down the pyro suppliers in Eastern Europe; other homegrown directives here will limit suppliers and ownership of the products necessary for the pursuit of our hobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted April 7, 2014 Share Posted April 7, 2014 Be sure there are allready countries which are hunting buyer of kno3 and equal with special police forces, regardless if it is legit or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pyrocyp Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Well it seems to be the end of our hobby here in Europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 Well it seems to be the end of our hobby here in EuropeOf course not. It's just going to be more expensive, and possibly, more illegal.I'm stocking up on KClO4, and when i run out, i guess i have to either hope someone can send me half a kilo every now and then, or, set up a (per)chlorate cell, and find a way to keep it running. If there is a will, there is a way, as they say.B! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mabuse00 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 (edited) I'm not so much worried about (per)chlorates, but rather the things on the whatchlist, especially the nitrates or sulphuric acid, one of the most basic chemicals. In practice this will mean that either nobody is going to sell it to you because of the bureaucratic hassle or you will get in trouble because your name is on the watchlist. It means that on the long run you wont get nitrates, or it will at least become extremely hard. You can substitute about anything - but can you do pyro without nitrates? No more BP?I don't think so. But perchlorate - If it wasn't for whistlemix, I could do without. Edited April 21, 2014 by mabuse00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Well i won't worry to muxh about chlorates and perc as they can be easily made at home, but like mabuse allready said, nitrates will becomme a much bigger problem. Everyone who lives in the UK can be happy about all the things tne UKPS achieved for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superspike23 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 KNO3 is not forbidden, it is impossible.In France, the butchers used to preserve meat.For strontium nitrate, it is not really considered dangerous.Barium nitrate is considered toxic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrB Posted April 21, 2014 Author Share Posted April 21, 2014 KNO3 is not forbidden, it is impossible.Weeeeell. No. NaO3 works "just as well" for the butcher.But i agree. It's going to be very unlikely that KNO3 will be competly banned. It's already a watchlist substance here in Sweden, and fertilizer-resellers tend to simply say it's not a part of their inventory, and that they cant get any, if your asking as a "private person". A company, such as a farmer, they generally just nod, take your order, and call once the 750kilo sack arrives... Not quite lab, or food grade, but more then plenty for pyro. I lucked out, so i got about 50 kilos from a farmer recently. (Actually asked around to find a farmer that was using the right stuff, and when i found one, i asked if there was any way i could buy some. He pointed me to a "empty" 750 kilo bag, and told me i could clean it out, take what was left in it. I had to ask his wife for a whole bunch of plastic shoppping-bags so i could double bag it, and carry it off. This stuff will need to be dried out, but hey... Free.At least around here, it's sold as "Krista K Plus" (powder) or "Unika Kali". (prills) If you can find anyone that carries them, it's 25 kilo paper bags, or big pack, 750 kilo powder, or 680 kilo prills.Oh... And it's about 46 euro for a 25 kilo bag, making it approximately half price compared to (cheap?) pyro sources.Now i just need to find a cheap source for sulfur. I'm thinking i'll have to take that from a pyro source, it used to be available in garden stores, but that to seams to have been removed. Anyways. I'ts weird how the (per)chlorate stuffs are getting banned, but not the really bad stuff, AN, is, and will remain a non-controlled substance, even after the stupid Norwegian tried to blow people up with it, and shot up a bunch of kids it's sold as "N34" fertilizer. It's not even a substance you get on the watchlist for as far as i know... Weird. I'm not interested in ANFO, but still, com on.B! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollie1016 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Well, it's not going to stop terrorists at all, which is a great shame. If someone wants to perform an act of terror, they will find a way to do it. The ban is really going to kill pyro in the UK and EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiwanluthiers Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 People who has their own garden uses kno3 as well, it's not just butchers. I think sodium nitrite is used for curing meat however. And as for outlawing (per)chlorate, it's easy enough to make them at home in a large quantity that it will not be possible to enforce. I am not even sure all this is about terrorism, probably has more to do with socialism, as in the government wants to control knowledge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
schroedinger Posted April 22, 2014 Share Posted April 22, 2014 Yep it's not going to stop terrorism at all specially as they still could just open up a company, which could still buy those chemicals as these laws just apply for private persons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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